Swamp double

[wayne goerres]

I was in louisiana this weekend and triped over this gun. Now for all you sharp eyed people out there, I am aware of the Broken stock. I beleave this gun is worth saveing. See if you can spot the dog and birds in the engraveing. The gun is a P Webley and sons of london manufacture. 10ga with 32" barrels. There is a duck and a pheasant and a pointer in each lock. I didnt see them either. They showed up when I photographed them.

[Mills Morrison]

:shock:Nice find there!

[John Truitt]

Very nice. Enjoy her.

[Dean Romig]

Yup, I see them but they're definitely pheasants.

What a beautiful gun!!

[Rick Losey]

wow. you are going to miss a lot of ducks while staring at that one

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice find there.. charlie

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

BEAUTIFUL ENGRAVING ON THAT GUN ! Gary

[ed good]

ah don see um...

[Rick Losey]

ah don see um...

Ok Ed, get your reading glasses out :) and follow the P Webley & sons banner in the first pic of the right side lock - there is the end of a pin in the middle of the scroll at the front end of the banner, then the finial of a scroll and then the first bird,

There is another bird two scrolls off the back of the banner

The dog is in the back curve of the lock right behind the rosette

[John Campbell]

Stunning wood on that one Wayne. And... I especially like the Rigby forend latch.

A fine prize! Shoot 'er gently.

[Ben Rawls]

Certainly wort the effort to repair the stock and freshen it up. Beautiful old gun.

[wayne goerres]

I have reopened this thread to share some additional pic's with John Cambell (kensel rise). He is helping me research this fine old gun. If anyone spots something they think is unusual please feel free to chime in.

[charlie cleveland]

thats sure is a good looking gun...the fellow was right when he said you would miss lots of ducks looking at this beauty....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

I haven't seen the broken stock yet, and better pictures would help us with the birds and dogs. What a great gun. Have you fixed the stock yet?

[wayne goerres]

The stock was fixed 5 years ago and thrse are the best pic's I have.

[John Campbell]

Wayne:
I got a bit of insight from my associate in the UK:

"That mention of 'St. James's' intrigued me the more I thought about it. St. James is an 'upscale' London parish/district but as we know guns are usually engraved with a numbered street address. Webley did have a London address in late 19th century, but it was 78, Shaftesbury Avenue, in central theatre-land, Soho parish, not St James's. I've found no advertisements for Webley with a St James's street address , yet.

The proof marks are indeed Birmingham proofs but as Webley production was based in Birmingham those marks would not arouse suspicion. However the attached cutting indicates that a lot of cheaply made Brummie guns were flooding the States in the early 1880's. The British writer had spent a lot of time in the States and was a rifle expert. I know the inscription he quotes is very slightly different as he says there is the word 'street' on the rib but I think caution would be very wise on this gun particularly as regards safety.

The cutting is dated 23rd April 1881, from 'The Field'."

[wayne goerres]

Received a 1877 Webley & Scott reprint catalog this week And thought I would post a couple of pages for those interested. Keep in mind that this gun was made between 1868 and 1875. This is as close as I have been able to get thus far. I find it interesting that even tho you bought a best gun they were willing to sell you extra's. These are also wholesale catalogs. If I figured it correctly the gun cost 47pounds and 11 shillings. that is roughly 240.00 in US Dollars. 1 pound equals 5 us dollars in 1870. The first photo shows the grades and prices in pounds and shillings ( example 440/- 44 pounds and 0 shillings). The second pic is the price list of the extra's.

[Mike Franzen]

I see only birds and a few scrolls.

[Bob Brown]

Love that English scroll engraving. The W&S and flying bullet on the action in the last set of pictures look correct for Webley and Scott's registered trade marks. The thing that I find unusual is P. Webley and Son and W&S Scott didn't amalgamate until 1897. Doesn't really fit with the proof marks and date of manufacture that you're thinking for it. Do you have a picture of the barrel flats?
There are a lot more P. Webley and Son shotguns out there than most people think. According to Webley and Scott's 1914 catalog, 90% of the P. Webley pre 1897 shotguns were not marked with their name. They had the retailer's name that they were made for. I'm pretty sure the Army and Navy CSL was a large buyer of P. Webley and Son shotguns.

[wayne goerres]

Mr Brown . The winged bullet that you are referring to as a Webley & Scott trade mark is most probably a Webley and Sons trade mark. I have an 1877 P Webley and sons whole sale catalog that has the trade mark all through it. That predates the merger of Webley and Scott by 20 years. ( just discovered this about a week ago ). The barrel flats only have the winged bullet logo on them. All other stampings are on the bottom of the barrels. Mike you have to look a little closer. ( lower left hand corner of the locks ).

[Bob Brown]

I may well be wrong. I have a book with trade marks and proof marks that lists the winged bullet over W&S as being a registered Webley and Scott trade mark. I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrong though. It also shows the winged bullet alone as being a Webley and Scott trademark and your catalog proves otherwise.

[Bob Brown]

Don't get me wrong, I like your shotgun a lot. The engraving and style reminds me of an early hammerless 10 gauge Army Navy CSL that I missed out on years ago. The time I spent finding out it was made by P. Webley and Son cost me the chance to buy it. One of the few that I regret missing out on.

[wayne goerres]

I think that trade marks have to be re-registered every so often. Could you check and see what information the book gives on the mark. Webley made pistols long before the merger and in the catalog there is an interesting notation above the logo. I post a pic. Read the two lines right over the logo.

[Bob Brown]

The book is "Gunmarks"by David Byron. I doesn't go into any detail on any of the proof or trademarks in the book. Just a diagram and one sentence for each. It has three versions of the Webley winged bullet. The cavity back one you have with trade and mark on either side and W&S below. One with more upright wings with a wide groove just back from the round nose which makes it look almost like a shotgun slug. It just has W&S below. The third is round nose bullet with several grease grooves and no letters. There is also the London Tower trade mark, the Webley in an oval, and the hand cuffed hands with Webleys above and M.R. below.