16 gauge Trojans with 3" chambers?

[Dean Romig]

I guess the point I was trying to make in my previous post is that we must keep in mind that we're talking about a Trojan. These guns were made to a standard and with very, very few exceptions, these standards were not deviated from except by special order or request. The likelyhood of 3" chambers requested for a Trojan (which was basically a hardware store gun ordered simply for stock - in the case of a 16 ga. they came in two variations, 26" or 28" with maybe a few 30" and that's about it) is extremely unlikely. That's why I said I would be surprised if factory documentation would support the 3" chambers.

[Researcher]

Three-inch shells have been around just about as long as cartridge shotguns have been around. Prior to repeaters, which needed a certain length shell to function reliably, there were a plethora of shell lengths. In my 1903 UMC catalogue there were 12-gauge paper shells 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. The 16-gauge was available 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. In those days these longer shells didn't pack a heavier payload, but more and better wadding for a better gas seal which many serious Pigeon shooters thought to be an advantage. The first time I see the longer shells packing a heavier load was around 1912 for the 3-inch 20-gauge for the famous Widgeon Duck Club Parker Bros. guns and the J. Stevens A & T Co. pump gun. These 3-inch 20-gauge shells packed 2 1/2 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot as opposed to the max load of 2 1/4 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot in the standard 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell!!! Several of the early Ansley H. Fox graded 20-gauge guns, circa 1912-13 were chambered for the 3-inch shell of that period. WW-I and the rise of repeaters requiring a specific length shell to operate reliably did away with this plethora of shell lengths briefly. We have found nine 3-inch chambered graded 16-gauge guns and one ordered chambered for 2 7/8 inch shells in the surviving Fox records. I seriously doubt a "made-for-stock" gun like a Trojan would be made with longer chambers. Some time back, Drew Hause published links to some old magazine articles about Parker Bros.'s A.W. DuBray hunting in the South with a 2 7/8 inch 16-gauge.

While my collection of ammo company paper from the 1930s is far from complete, the only listing for a 3-inch 16-gauge shell I've found during the 1930s is in the 1934 Winchester catalogue where they offer their old style Leader shell, which was loaded with bulk or dense smokeless powders, in a 3-inch 16-gauge shell. The 3-inch 16-gauge shell Stdat shows in the Model 21 chapter of his Winchester shotguns and shells book is a Leader. However, the maximum load offered in the 16-gauge Leader was 1 ounce of shot, while the newer style Winchester Super Speed shell loaded with progressive burning powder offered a 2 9/16 inch shell with a 3 dram equiv., 1 1/8 ounce load!?!

I went to the Stadt book and you are right- in the M21 chapter page 91 is shown the 3" unfired Winchester 16 ga. Leader shell, and a 1 ounce capacity- Then you mention later a 1 & 1/8th oz. load in the older 2 & 9/16" length 16 ga. shells-- Just for the heck of it-- let's take two identical VH 16 Parkers- std no. 1 size frame- 28" barrels, call them a 'matched pair'-- one has the 2 & 9/16" chambers, its brother has the 3"-- I would much rather fire the 1 oz. load in the 3" chambered gun, than the other- and I'll bet you'd see more uniform patterns on paper as well.

On balance, I tend to agree with Brother Romig here- the Trojan was the hardware store stock model, and except way later on in its life when they offered a single trigger, it was a basic boxlock extractor double with excellent function and plain finish- So never say never, but as Parker apparently liked to run the receivers through production in lots of 100, probably same for the barrels (and the lack of the std. Doll's Head on the Trojan) selecting a set from production for longer chambers- would entail more paperwork, etc.

I'll even go further- Once the Parker Trojan was introduced, it gradually became Parker's best selling grade- just as Houchin's book shows the Field Grade LC Smith accounted for 80% of Hunter Arms output-- If the Trojan and the VH(E) both came out on the open market the exact same year, and with the appropriate retail price differential, my guess is- the Trojan grade would have been the all-time sales leader-

If I were somehow transformed into a key management position with Parker Brothers- and was in charge from 1900 to 1930-- I would of course keep the Trojan and Vulcan- then the GH(E), DH(E) and AHE-- with the AAHE and A-1 Special and Invincible only on non-cancellable special order with a 60% downpayment on such orders--I would have phased out anything larger than 10 ga., moved away from the Hammer guns and into proof steel barrels over Damascus or twist earlier- Frame sizes would be Nos. 2 (std 10 and heavy 12) 1 & 1/2 for std 12- 1 for 16, and 0 for 20, 00 for 28 and 000 for the .410 bore-

Just reading Dave's excellent reply with all the details of the early shell variations- a monster for inventory and production control- ditto perhaps Parker's inventory of machined parts, fixtures and gauges- Wow!!

Thanks to all of you for your contributions- I may well be bidding on a few Colts, and I'll ask for the final hammer price on this Trojan offered by RIA--

[Bill Murphy]

There is no proof that RIA measured the chambers correctly. If someone is truly interested in the gun, they would request a PGCA letter. There is a possibility that a special order chamber length would be noted in the stock book entry.