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Don Kaas
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 11th, 2005 |
| Location: | Palm,PA |
| Posts: | 2720 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 01:51 pm |
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| The dispute at the PGC revolves not around pigeons but around land, or should I say money... The mayor of the township want us to move and take our land. An arrangement was made in 2002, when the area was rezoned for residential development. The Township has now decided to dishonor that arrangement. Ms. Katz (perhaps more a "do gooder" busybody than a terrorist-she lead the anti foie gras campaign, afterall, a glass of white wine in hand, no doubt) and the despicable HSUS are really not the drivers of this latest controversy. Our neighbors to the south have their land under an sale option to a large condo developer. We have an easement over their property and this complicates their position. As you might expect our 14 acres of river front property and an old mansion 2 minutes from an urban interstate highway exit has some value...hence the complicated tangle of interests. As it is the Township and its police powers are being utilized to attempt to harass us into submission. Pigeon shooting, no matter what one thinks about it, is perfectly legal in Pennsylvania, we are a pre-existing use under the zoning code and the animal cruelty laws do not cover pigeons. These points have been upheld before the courts in recent years. We have been shooting pigeon in Bensalem Township for 132 years and we wish to continue our lawful activities. If we have to file a lawsuit to prevent harassment by the Mayor and his lackies, we will regretfully do so. Last edited on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 01:54 pm by Don Kaas
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Derrick Stewart
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 02:27 pm |
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Mr. Kass,
I have only seen pictures of the Philly Gun Club and it seems to be a wonderful place with a rich history. I hope you fight to the end as I know you will to keep this historical place alive for many years to come.
Best of Luck,
Derrick
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 02:51 pm |
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Most Gun clubs in the USA are under attack due to urban sprawl. Subdivisions are popping up near Clubs that have been established for 50 years or more and the first thing that happens, is lawsuites. Countless Clubs in Michigan have been targeted, As long as there are Lawyer's willing to take cases that have no merit to line there pockets Clubs will be victimized. Unfortunately most clubs can not afford the long legal battle. The PGC is fortunate to have the money and Attorney's as members that can take on this very expensive task.
Good Luck
Bill
Last edited on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 02:51 pm by Bill Bolyard
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 03:55 pm |
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The situation is a little more complicated than that. But it is due to cities growing around what formerly was outlying land. Some gun clubs close to urban areas have ceased live pigeon shooting because it seems no matter what you do, you end up with dead and dying pigeons around neighboring homes and expiring on their driveways, front yards, etc. It just invites trouble.
At least that's been the experience here. I supposed if a place was located where the wounded birds just went out to sea or disappeared into a swamp, the problem could be avoided. A couple years ago when Charlie, Greg and I went pigeon shooting ( boxed birds, the barn being a big box) there was all of eastern Montana for the birds to go down, and damn, wouldn't you know, I ended up picking two of them up off the front walk of the ranch foreman's home.
Last edited on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 04:14 pm by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 04:12 pm |
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Bruce,
The attack on shooting ranges is way more then a few dead Pigeons. These groups do what ever it takes to shut them down. Please see attached link. What did they expect when you build a house next to one. Its like a Farmer friend who told me the new neighbor filed a lawsuit against him to quit spreading manure on his fields. His family has had the farm for over 100 years.
Bill
http://www.cfqc.org/
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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| Was he using this machine? Attached Image (viewed 216 times):
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Bruce Day
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 04:23 pm |
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Bruce,
I just put that in the post because I knew you had that photo, and were just dying to post it.
Bill
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Ben Yarian
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Fri Jun 30th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 340 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 10:03 pm |
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We have neighbors of our shooting club that have attacked us and threatened law suits for noise. The club was there long before they were. They moved in and insisted that the club stop shooting. Said it was dissturbing to their peace. The club has had the help of the NRA and has planted a lot of sound deadning trees and shrubery. Butstill they get complaints from ner comers that move in and want to change things that have been the same for years befor they showed up. I guess it is just another one of the things that we as gun owners and shooters will have to deal with.
Ben
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Destry Hoffard
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 3044 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:02 pm |
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There's a shooting complex at Island Lake, MI that's having the same trouble. Place has been there for years but new neighbors are trying to get it closed. They actually got them shut down for a short time but it opened back up thankfully.
Destry
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The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:11 pm |
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Destry,
Look at my prior post with attachment, That is the group gunning for Island Lake.
Bill
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Destry Hoffard
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 3044 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:17 pm |
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I clicked the link after I did the posting, I'm slow like that.
DLH
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The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:40 pm |
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Destry,
I contacted the DNR about shooting Pigeons. I was told as long as you have a valid hunting license you can shoot feral birds. I asked about boxed domestic birds and the reply was If nobody complains go ahead as long as you are not keeping score. refer to Mich Comp. Laws. 750.49 (a) and (b) So if you want, go ahead, as long as you do not keep score.
Bill
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Jay Gardner
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 691 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:45 pm |
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Kind of off topic, but I am a little cranky today so I am going to let go: it always amazes me how the do-gooder, tree-hugging, animal rights crowd is willing to spend their time and effort saving their little four-legged and winged friends while not giving a scht about the kids in those same areas that have to go to an over crowded school, in a building well past its useful life to the point of decay. Making matters worse, many of those kids live in dispicable poverty and have to go to school without breakfast, walking through neighborhoods so dangerous that police have to be posted, and once they get there they have to share text books and other resources (or even bring their own toilet paper). Where the hell are their priorities? Who cares that there are children living in poverty, struggling to get a third-world education when there are pigeons that need saving.
Sorry, this just pizzes me off. And by the way, I bet that several of those houses that were built next to Island Lake are now in foreclosere, which may prompt another rant after I have a drink or two.
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 11:55 pm |
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Jay,
You are out of sorts today! I don't think I have ever seen one of your post like this one. Fox news also had a story how peta is killing 90% of the pets they take in, Go figure. I suggest a Nice glass of Famous Grouse and a book, like A Fine and Pleasant Misery by Patrick McManuss, and no Tv for you tonight young man
Bill
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Dave Suponski
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 1027 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:08 am |
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I think this is happening everywhere.My gun club about 5 or 6 years ago defended a cease and desist order by residents of a new sub divsion located fairly close to our grounds.
Our club has been in existence since 1935.Just as we were about to go to court the State of Connecticut enacted a law that "grandfathered"in all gun clubs that were then in existence but severly limited any new clubs from forming.
As a goodwill gesture we curtailed our shooting hours on every other Sunday and one homeowner in the new neighborhood turned out to be a shooter.He got a free membership 
Also we let the local police use the range a couple times a month...It doesn,t hurt to give back a little.
Jay...Come on now smile...ah ok how about a smirk?
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Dave....
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Jay Gardner
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 691 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:14 am |
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Bill,
A little out of character for me on this board, but my wife and daughter are well aware of my propensity to "go completely off the beam" over certain topics. They believe that I am well on my way to becoming a curmudgeon.
Well, I think I'll take your advice, sign-off for the evening and retire to a glass of Buffalo Trace while I try to finish "Jenny Willow" with out sobbing too loudly.
Good night, all.
Jay
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Bill Bolyard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:17 am |
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Jay, Great book see you tomorrow.
Bill
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C Roger Giles
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Wed Mar 30th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 1012 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:29 am |
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I feel like helping Jay out in his disgust.
That Katz chick had anything to say in defence of that flock of geese that put a plane in the Hudson River and damn near killed or drowned many people. Also I read somewhere that bird and plane encounters are more frequent than what is officially reported. May a pigeon do a great big poop on Katz soon.
Goose hunting in my area is a real mess, one a day limit and you must take any goose you kill to a DNR checking station as soon as possible after the kill. I gave up goose hunting because of this ruling, DNR can keep their geese and I'll keep my money that would be put into the economy via goose hunting.
Bill Bolyard your Famous Grouse suggestion is a good one and has been complied with at my home this afternoon, thanks for the idea. And yes Jenny Willow is a good read.
Roger
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 12:34 am by C Roger Giles
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Lon E. Morris
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:45 am |
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Don,
My heart is out to your club and I truly hope you prevail!
However, my firm Western Agri Financial, Inc. finances and markets large ranches in Montana and Wyoming. One of the largest hurdles I face, is toxic waste. Toxic waste contamination liability, lies strictly with the current landowner, and any lands suspected of toxic waste contamination are considered "dead", as no one wants to purchase the land and then be held responsible for toxic waste cleanup. I would advise you to obtain a Phase III environmental audit, and I would suspect 132 years of shooting lead shot will constitute a toxic waste propblem, and will put an end to any development ideas. It, of course, is a double edge sword, but is worthy of consideration.
Sincerely, Lon
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:47 am by Lon E. Morris
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Dave Fuller
PGCA Member
| Joined: | Thu May 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 344 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 02:11 am |
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| My Gun Club is under assault as well. Some Jackass filed a suit with the EPA that alleged we were causing lead to enter the groundwater. This is in spite of the fact the we have a certificate stating that we have complied with all EPA guidance for environmental stewardship at gun ranges. We have been cleared by the State and the EPA twice that no infractions were found but he continues to file appeals. To date we have spent $297,000 in legal fees and environmental engineering fees and there is no end in sight. The rifle range is still open but we have not been able to shoot trap or clays for almost 2 years. I hope we can counter sue this SOB. Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 02:14 am by Dave Fuller
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