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Mike Poindexter
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Mar 8th, 2009 01:08 am |
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| paul-- How does he explain the VH forend when V's weren't even made for another 9 years?
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Mar 9th, 2009 11:52 pm |
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| He doesn't- it was what you saw. As I said, it was just a basic gun that got bid up. No one told anyone to bid, they just did. Paul
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Steve Huffman
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 12:03 am |
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Maybe the buyer wont pay for it and the jokes on them. 
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 12:21 pm |
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| Regardless, the gun is not a collector gun unless the 28 1/2" barrels and chokes hold up under a PGCA letter. I understand that two bidders are not neccesary to raise a bid more than the minimum on gunbroker. At least on ebay, one bidder can't be victimized by a bid with no competition. However, three bidders took this gun to the $2400 level, at least three times its real value. It's almost worth getting a PGCA letter to see if the guy got a real gun or a sawed off rustbucket. I recently bought a sawed off Parker, but I didn't pay quite that much. Last edited on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 12:31 pm by Bill Murphy
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 01:12 pm |
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| The matting stoped just before the end of the barrels and the barrels were touching so I don't believe they were cut. In my opnion it was just a 8 to 900 dollar gun. But as we saw, the bidding just kept going on and inflated the value of the gun. The same fellow sold for me a set of four Colt derringers, a Simpson SxS, and a Ithaca Victory SBT all for much more than I'd hoped for. Was I happy- you bet. Is Dave happy- yes.
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 01:56 pm |
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Paul, I'll have to check my records, but I may have bought the Victory Trap. Yup, Brad Bremer, Attica, MI. sold me the Victory. Maybe you could tell me who did the refinishing work on the gun. I would like to buy that guy's camera. The Victory looked factory new in the auctionarms ad. Thanks for the information if you'll send it to wilmrph@verizon.net
Last edited on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 01:59 pm by Bill Murphy
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 03:53 pm |
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| Bill, sent you an email. That was one of the guns I shouldn't have sold. It went for a fair price- I just got it cheap. I believe I sold it because being retired I watch what and how much I buy. I like Parkers and Remingtons and when a Remington F grade trap gun came up for sale I sold the Ithaca to buy it. Hope you like it as much as I did. Paul
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Bill Murphy
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 08:05 pm |
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| No email. Try again. Who did the work on the gun?
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:08 pm |
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| Other than a recoil pad, nothing. What you see is how Dave bought it from Williams Gun Sight, installed a new pad, and letter sold it to me. I did nothing to it. Paul
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 01:15 pm |
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Jack; Several years ago we plotted the finish weight vs stamped weight of about 100 Parker barrel sets and found that on average, the finishing process removed 15% of the unstruck original weight. The spread was larger below s/n about 50,000.
This is the average and does not predict the weight of an individual gun. The final weight is mostly determined by the taper or "swamp" from breech to fore end tip.
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Jack Cronkhite
Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:44 pm |
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Austin W Hogan wrote: Jack; Several years ago we plotted the finish weight vs stamped weight of about 100 Parker barrel sets and found that on average, the finishing process removed 15% of the unstruck original weight. The spread was larger below s/n about 50,000.
This is the average and does not predict the weight of an individual gun. The final weight is mostly determined by the taper or "swamp" from breech to fore end tip.
Thanks Austin. Is this a way to express your findings????
If the SN is less than 50,000 then the finished weight (FW) is approximately the stamped weight minus 15%.
When examining Parker barrels of SN greater than 50,000, the more the actual weight (AW) is less than stamped weight (SW) minus 15%, the greater the proablility that the barrels have been cut since manufacture.
FW = SW-[0.15 (SW)]
When AW = FW the probablity that barells have been cut approaches zero
As AW decreases relative to FW, the probability that the barrels have been cut increases
If this is stated correctly, it becomes useful to draw an inference regarding barrel cutting when making a purchase decision.
All this becmes academic if one wants the gun regardless. It may be a slight negotiating advantage.
If I have this right Austin, I will tuck that info into my travel kit for a "just in case" random sighting.
Regards,
Jack
____________________
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:53 pm |
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| I think that measuring bore and choke dimensions is more to the point.
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Jack Cronkhite
Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 04:34 pm |
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Bill: Thanks. What should I know about bore/choke measurements that will assist in determining originality pre-purchase? Are most of those specs in the Serialization book (as yet not owned). Jack
____________________
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 05:53 pm |
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| It depends on the gauge and the era of manufacture. After about 1895, a 12 gauge in original condition should have bores no bigger than about .735 and most would be closer to .730. I don't know how long the chokes should be, but they should be there, and should be as long as they are on other Parkers. The gun's barrels should either match the PGCA letter, the Serialization Book, and be carefully measured for length and bore.
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 08:10 pm |
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The weighing technique isn't reliable, as +/= 1 /32 inch barrel diameter ahead of the breech weighs as much as several inches of barrel at the muzzle. Bill's method of choke measurement is best; the choke taper should begin 3 - 4 inches behind the muzzle. This does not work with cylinder chokes and some IC.
Too many people know about the band at the end of the barrel matting; It can be recut in a couple of minutes.
The amount of contact, or space between the barrels at the muzzle is probably the only sure indication of a cut barrel, if all the workmanship is good.
Best, Austin
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Jack Cronkhite
Member
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 09:47 pm |
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Austin W Hogan wrote: The amount of contact, or space between the barrels at the muzzle is probably the only sure indication of a cut barrel, if all the workmanship is good.
Best, Austin
I like the idea of a sure indication.
Do you have some pictures/diagrams that demonstrate the point?
Thanks,
Jack
____________________
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 09:59 pm |
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Unfortunately even that's not a sure indication, I've seen guns that were clearly sawed off that had touching barrels.
DLH
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 11:09 pm |
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I agree Destry; there are many that apparently had tangent barrels for several inches back from the muzzles. These usually just "don't look right" slightly asymetric, and especially in the case of a M/F set that has been cut, differing barrel thickness that is not as long as a choke.
The 30 to 26 CYL/CYL is the toughest to identify, if it has been well done, and the barrels properly reblued.
Best, Austin
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 12:31 am |
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| I don't know about the chokes being correct, or not. I do know the matting on the rib stopped about 3/8' or so before the end of the barrels. I believe that would indicate the barrels weren't cut. Paul
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E Robert Fabian
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Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 12:42 am |
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Bill, I think this has been discussed in the past. What would be the bore diameter on a 1880's 90's ten bore?
Thanks Bob
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