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Bill Murphy
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:02 pm |
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| I didn't say it should be one of my 20 gauge Damascus guns. Austin, I'm looking for a travelling companion from somewhere near my area. I won't drive up by myself.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:05 pm |
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Both the D2 and the Vulcan barrels were cut short and had heavy pitting on the inside. They were so heavily pitted that I can't conceive of anybody I know shooting them. They looked dangerous.
I was amazed that they held together as well as they did.
Sherman Bell did a great service to the Parker as well as the Damascus gun barrel community by these tests. Sure, the sampling is so small that it is not possible to draw broad conclusions, but we will anyway. Used out and pitted Parkers in the lower grades are not objects of sensible veneration and if they can be used to further our knowledge and help put to rest misconceptions, I'm all for it and would even donate a gun for destructive tests if needed.
I don't know what crash testing a Duesenberg would help prove. I don't see an equivalency. Its obvious they do not have the safety features of modern cars. The rupture point of Damascus barrels is not so obvious.
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Bruce Day
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Don Kaas
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 11th, 2005 |
| Location: | Palm,PA |
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:08 pm |
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Only if the Doozie is Clark or Gary's SSJ...
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:30 pm |
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| Think of it, tooling up to the pigeon ring at PGC in Clark's Deusy with a couple of Clark's Parkers in the boot.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:32 pm |
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Well Don, my old beater( not really) is a 49 Ford wagon. Putting new wood on it now after 10 layers of Pettit marine varnish. But those Duesenbergs...wow. What a car and I 'd rather have one than a modern car with air bags, etc.
Acquaintance just bought a Testarosa, lot of fun.
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Bruce Day
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 03:38 pm |
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"I don't know what crash testing a Duesenberg would help prove. I don't see an equivalency. Its obvious they do not have the safety features of modern cars."
Exactly my point - it would be meaningless and wasteful to crash test a Duesenberg - just like it is meaningless to blow up a miniscule sampling of Parkers.
"The rupture point of Damascus barrels is not so obvious."
Again, how one 100 year old set of barrels performs hardly indicates how 40,000 other sets will perform. Firing any 100 year old gun can be risky, Damascus or not. The guy who's concerned should do one of two things - not fire the gun at all, or used reduced pressure loads and keep his fingers crossed. Personally? I would fire standard field loads in a Damascus Parker that's in good shape and not worry about it. I've seen plenty of cheap Damascus guns in poor shape hold up to standard loads. But therein lies the rub - my anecdotal evidence doesn't purposely destroy any Parkers.
" Sure, the sampling is so small that it is not possible to draw broad conclusions, but we will anyway."
The blind leading the blind?
Won't we all feel stupid when some guy loses half his face and all he can do is go around and mumble about how that guy in DGJ proved his Damascus gun shoulda held up to them duck loads?
I guess it boils down, in part, to snobbery. No one would are blow up an AAHE, but it seems to be OK to trash a lowly VH.....
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 04:14 pm |
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| Lighten up, Greg. This BBS is for fun. Some people disagree with the standard view on composite barrels like Lord Ripon, Eightbore Murphy and Sherman Bell. The latter destroyed the barrels of two ratty Parkers-parts guns at best with some interesting results. Good quality Damascus barrels in good condition are "safe" with appropriate loads and they were long before Sherman Bell picked up his first popgun. They passed the same proof test in Meriden as the contemporary fluid steel barrels and they pass the same proof test in London and Birmingham as similarly chambered modern barrels. I think I'll have Kevin make me a fitted case for a pair of rusty 12 gauge Trojans to hang on the back of the Derham bodied SJ tourer -presentation is everything... Last edited on Wed Oct 5th, 2005 04:25 pm by Don Kaas
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Pete Hiatt
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 04:35 pm |
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| 85 years of denigrating the strength of Damascus barrels will likely never be solved by fact. It does not matter that some folks have been using them with magnum loads for decades. It does not matter that they passed the same proof tests as steel barrels in days of yore. It does not matter that no Damascus LC or Parker has EVER failed English nitro proof tests. It does not matter that it is obstructions that blows barrels, or thinned barrels that fail. Facts won't work. Send them all to me for "proper disposal".
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Mark Vickers
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 05:20 pm |
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When I recently bought my first Parker, an ancient GH, I was warned by the seller that it was a Damascus bomb and it should not be shot as it had some (light) pitting. I bought it anyway.
I sent the gun to a competent gunsmith that specializes in doubles. He polished the barrels and took thickness measurements. He assured me that the gun could be shot with immunity using light loads. Together with Mr. Bell's article, I stepped out on a limb and took the gun for a round of trap.
I regularly hunt with it now using 2 1/2" low power loads. I seriously doubt I'll be joining the nine finger club anytime soon.
I like the look of the barrel metal so much that part of my requirement for my next Parker is that it have Damascus barrels.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 05:36 pm |
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Good for you Mark. These old Damascus guns have a special allure. I like to shoot my old original condition 1890 GH 12/30 1 frame with 4lb 11oz unstruck wt barrels. It was likely a live pigeon gun, and is very steady and solid on the trap line.
I shoot regular 1 1/8 oz 2 3/4" trap loads and the gun hardly recoils.
These Damascus barrels are usually pretty hefty and not as tapered as fluid steel. Its fun to shoot these old guns, many of which were made not long after the Battle of the Little Bighorn. These old G's were the guns that gave Parker the reputation that lasts through today, and it is amazing to see how many are still in use today. About 26,000 were made. How many other mechanisms over a century old are still in use?
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Bruce Day
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 06:52 pm |
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I have a GH, 12 gauge, #1 frame, with 26" uncut Damascus barrels, weighs 6lbs 10oz. I have a GH, 16 gauge, #0 frame, 28" uncut Damascus, weighs about 6lbs 4oz and a PH, 16 gauge, #0 frame, 28" uncut Twist barrels, a little over 6lbs. I shoot these guns for skeet, trap, sporting clays, and hunting. I can't remember the last time I shot a fluid steel barrel gun. I honestly don't know what it is about these guns, but there is surely something special about them. And when you are in the woods with one of these guns, and your walking along behind your setter. Everything just seems right with the world at that moment in time. 
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 07:41 pm |
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Actually, a Duesenberg SJ was recently "crash tested" on the roads of Indiana. It was tboned by some guy running a stoplight. All four occupants of the Duese were ejected and died. No seat belts.
Phil Murphy
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Banned and happy to be rid of a sanctimonious bunch.
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Don Larson
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| Joined: | Sun Aug 21st, 2005 |
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 07:57 pm |
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| Wow...Bummer...
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 07:57 pm |
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I remember reading about that Phil. A woman in a Volvo and the Duesenberg was newly restored.
My understanding is that no collector car organization deducts points for seatbelts in judging so most, including me, install seatbelts in the old cars.
But that doesn't mean that I will have choke tubes put in a Parker, unless its those extended tubes in colors.
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Bruce Day
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Don Larson
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 08:04 pm |
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| Bruce...seen a guy at our local clays club that had a nice A fox(my other love)30" cut to 28" and some beautiful colored choke tubes sticking out of it...Boy I sure wish I had one(giggle giggle)...Don...
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Jay Gardner
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Posted: Wed Oct 5th, 2005 08:07 pm |
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Dave Miles wrote: I have a GH, 12 gauge, #1 frame, with 26" uncut Damascus barrels, weighs 6lbs 10oz. I have a GH, 16 gauge, #0 frame, 28" uncut Damascus, weighs about 6lbs 4oz and a PH, 16 gauge, #0 frame, 28" uncut Twist barrels, a little over 6lbs. I shoot these guns for skeet, trap, sporting clays, and hunting. I can't remember the last time I shot a fluid steel barrel gun. I honestly don't know what it is about these guns, but there is surely something special about them. And when you are in the woods with one of these guns, and your walking along behind your setter. Everything just seems right with the world at that moment in time.
Geez, Dave. You have become quite the damascus junkie. And I thought that I had it bad. For the record, Mr. Miles has some VERY beautiful guns. Great examples of the art of Parker. The PH is just spectacular - there is no other way to describe it.
Jay
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Weathered corn, an apple left unnoticed on the tree, the crunch of frosted stubble underfoot, wood smoke in the evening - these things remind me of the wild, fall days of boyhood...the best of those days were the Saturday's, afield with my dad.
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Greg Connors
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Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 02:52 pm |
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OK Don, I will lighten up. But my opinion of the whole sordid affair remains unchanged.
My last thoughts on this topic which may apply to more than just me... someday I'll be old and may have a few more pits and dings than now. So I sure hope when I get older and have lost some of my natural luster they don't decide it's cool to overload me and watch me explode! 
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 03:04 pm |
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Those guns were pretty dead. It is analogous to leaving your body to science. It you had seen the bores, particularly of the Vulcan grade, you would have a better understanding.
Most of us treasure these guns, even the low grade ones , but sometimes you gotta cover your eyes and shoot the dying horse.
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Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 03:55 pm |
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| I have never been one to recommend (to a third party) the shooting of Damascus guns with nitro powders, but if anyone interested in doing so would investigate a bit, he would be quite comfortable doing so. Personally, I would be more comfortable putting proof loads through most of my Damascus guns than I would through my favorite little crossover stocked VH 28" Vulcan Steel 12 that weighs just over 6 1/2 pounds. I own wall thickness gauges, but I'm not sure I want to know the reading on that one. A friend bought an outrageous AAHE light bird gun at auction for about one tenth its true value because the catalog description said "wall thickness unsafe". In looking at the Parker Brothers order for his gun, it was originally ordered by A&F at 6 1/2 pounds. My assumption is that the barrels, inside or out, had never been modified from original. Oh well.
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