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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2005 03:00 pm |
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Yeah Pete, cause you know more about what to shoot in old guns than the guys that did the testing. We all know you're smarter than us and that Smith guns are the best...blah...blah...blah.... *rolls eyes*
Destry
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The member formerly known as Market Hunter
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Jeff Mulliken
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2005 04:44 pm |
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Has anyone tested a pitted damascus barrel to failure? I think that many of us are comfortable with damascus barrels except for the fear of hidden occlusions which may have grown through corrosion.
Jeff
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John Hickerson
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2005 06:55 pm |
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Jeff,
AS I remember The Damascus barrels that Sherman Bell tested were pitted. Does anyone else thinks so?
Hick
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HICK
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James Williams
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Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2005 09:21 pm |
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Jeff,
You are right, they were pitted, but not severely so.
Jim
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Pete Hiatt
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 12:09 am |
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Destry, it is great that you admit the obvious.
As for testing Damascus to destruction, there have been numerous threads (mainly on http://www.gunshop.com ) on this subject. On the subject of Damascus failing, there were many examples but all were due to obstructions. In fact, many more K-80's have blown by mysterious causes than Damascus. One 28 Ga blew because the barrel has been honed down to ).009". Just a bit too much. I also saw an old JABC (Just Another Belgium Clunker) which had started to unravel. It was strengthed by a piece of steel welded around it. The owner just loved to shoot the old gun which had a barrel interior with NO pollish left...just simply black corrosion with extremely thin walls. He never used reduced loads. He saw no sense to it after using many different Damascus guns over the years.
By the way, no Damascus Parker has ever failed English proof test.
As for quality of American guns, I consider Parker up there quite high just after LC Smith , Colt 1883, and Lefever. Quite good considering it is a hardware store gun.
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Destry Hoffard
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 01:20 am |
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Pete,
I was using that new thing called sarcasm when I responded to you. Heard of it?
And they're all hardware store guns in case you weren't aware of that fact. Be it Smith, Parker, Lefever, Crescent, whatever the name. If it was a shotgun, and made in the US back in those days, it's a hardware store gun.
If Parker is so far down on your list maybe you should just stop posting on our site. I know we'd all be sorry to see you go.....
Destry
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Pete Hiatt
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 02:32 am |
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| Destry, when you are right, you are right whether you are being sarcastic or not.
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C Roger Giles
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 03:04 am |
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I read Sherman and Tom's article in the DGJ last night twice so I would not miss something important and today in the company of Destry I ran what is my favorite trap load through Ol' Clunker sans fear of whatever. It felt good not to have to baby Ol' Clunker with light loads that are just fine from 16yds but puny at best from 27yds and at other shooting games.
Remember damascus barrels are a kind of forging and forged iron is tougher than most realize. Ol' Clunker's barrels are pitted but not too badly and the wall thickness at the breech is quite thick and stays thick on down the barrels for at least 20 inches.
The shooting investigation will continue as EDM or JD might say on the BBS.
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 04:05 am |
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Ooooo what a stabbing reply. *swoons*
Just the sort of thing I'd expect from you Peat.
Destry
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Fred Preston
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 11:06 am |
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| Roger, I did the same, and felt the same confidence, yesterday with the old Damascus DH on Brian's Skeet course. The score wasn't very impressive; but, then (alibi), the gun isn't choked for that game.
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Mark Conrad
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 12:28 pm |
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Harry, the barrels arrived Friday. I will bring them to Chantilly and we will have both sets for everyone to compare. Thank you for your contribution to the PGCA .
Mark Conrad
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 02:17 pm |
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Hey guys. A hallmark of our association should be comradie and respect. There is no need to get sacastic or anything ungentlemenly. Just let it pass or if you debate, do so with facts and not personal attacks.
Some people say things just to get a rise. No response is appropriate to such comments.
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Bruce Day
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Harry Collins
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 10:31 pm |
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Mark,
Sherman Bell wrote "It is in pretty sad condition, but you have to break eggs to have an omelet, as they say." I thought the VH barrels were going to be in about the same shape as the GH Damascus barrels. Was I shocked to see the incredible difference and how poorly the VH had compared. Thanks for getting both sets of barrels to the meeting. I am sure everyone will be grateful.
Kind Regards, Harry Collins
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Sam Ogle
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Posted: Tue Jul 12th, 2005 01:12 am |
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I've read Sherman Bell's article as well, and so I took an old Damascus #2 frame DH out of it's closet, and shot regular 2 3/4 inch 2 3/4 dram Remington Gun Clubs in it at "Vintage League" with no fear as well.
I either demolished 'em, or missed 'em. Dang, that Ol' DH is choked tiiiight. What a satisfying experience.
Sincerely;
Sam Ogle
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2005 02:10 am |
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Received my DGJ today and went straight to Sherman's article. Aside from what some of the 'naysayers' over on the DoubleGun BBS say about this project, I believe the experiment was very close to being a 'controlled' scientific study. The results were impressive but I honestly expected the fluid steel barrels to withstand pressures 30-50% greater than the Damascus barrels had. It gives me greater confidence in Damascus barrels but that confidence is somewhat reserved. Any barrel, but especially Damascus, is subject to pitting and lack of sufficient wall thickness at the most critical areas, i.e. from the cones foreward to approximately ten to twelve inches. So, it remains critically important to have these barrels checked by a competent barrel expert.
One point of interest is that the top lever came nicely back right-of-center as noted in the middle picture on page 33. Anyone who has an old Parker showing extreme age and wear to the point of the lever falling left-of-center should consider rippin' off a few of them elephant loads in her to see if the lever will come around to the right 
This whole excercise in finding the extremes of pressures Parker barrels may endure leads me to speculate on the possibility that most any Damascus barrels that would have burst due to imperfections such as occlusions or vacancies of material in barrel walls, etc., will have, by now, done so... and that the vast majority of remaining Damascus-barreled Parkers are probably safe (given sufficient chamber and cone length and wall thickness) to digest the majority of today's ammunition. After all, there have been an awful lot of young, uninformed shooters of Damascus guns who got ahold of Grampaw's ol' scattergun and fed it whatever would fit and still allow the gun to close who still have all their digits.
Opinions?...
Last edited on Thu Jul 14th, 2005 10:14 am by Dean Romig
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2005 11:43 am |
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| I agree. Wall thickness is the main key. I don't intend to run right out and start shooting factory ammunition out of zero frame sixteens or one frame twelves, however, unless I measure them carefully.
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2005 01:52 am |
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Re: Lever right or left of center.
To the best of my knowledge, the top lever actuates a cam which retracts the bolt to allow the gun to be opened. When the gun is closed, the under lump releases the latch (which you push with a pencil to center the lever on a disassembled gun), allowing the bolt to slide forward and lock the gun. The lever has no influence on the locking process, but keeps the gun from unlocking.
That describes a lot of parts and motions in three sentences, but a Parker will lock with the lever in the half right position. Try it.
Best, Austin
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2005 02:16 am |
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| , , !
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2005 01:41 pm |
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Bill, I shoot a 1 frame GH 12/30 Damascus that I bought a couple years ago from EDM. Its an 8 lb gun with 4 pound 8 ounce marked barrel weight. Balances 1 1/4 inches forward of the hinge pin. So, there are some pretty heavy 1 frame guns out there. The barrels are just as stout as they would be on a 2 frame.
I don't understand Parker's reasoning when they built such heavy 1 frame guns. Always seemed to me to be more logical that a 1 frame should be light, maybe at or just under 7lbs, a 1 1/2 frame standard at around 7 1/2 and the 2 frame should be heavy at 8 lbs, all assuming 28 or 30 barrels, but thats not the way Parker built them.
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C Roger Giles
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Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2005 08:20 pm |
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I read that several of us are shooting " fractory loads " in our damascus guns and Murph is onto the thickness thing rightfully so and I know we are all macho brave but how long will these damascus barrels last under sustained useage using factory loads.
Hogan made a very valid point with his remarks about the fact that the weaker barrels have been culled out of the system so to speak and therefore I will continue to shoot factory loads until my eyes, hand or arm comes to harm. It's that damn macho rearing it's head and giving bad advise, maybe. Shooting out on the edge based on the Sherman/Armburst article feels good.
Roger an Ol' Clunk
Last edited on Fri Jul 15th, 2005 08:24 pm by C Roger Giles
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