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Mark Conrad
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Posted: Mon Feb 19th, 2007 02:47 am |
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I have listed below the annoucement for this year's Challenge Event. Please note we have added a few more trophies and added a Hammer Gun Challenge for Sunday morning. There are few items in this announcement that apply only to the LCSCA, I have left them in for those members who belong to both organizations. I look forward to seeing everyone there.
Fourth Annual L.C. Smith vs. Parker Challenge
@ the
The Southern Side by Side Championships
Deep River Shooting School, Sanford, NC
April 27-29, 2007
Gentlemen, check your guns and get prepared for the Fourth Annual LC Smith vs. Parker Challenge Event! Yes it’s true, the shootout event of the year; the event on which you have awaited with breathless anticipation for nearly an entire year is now just weeks away. Therefore the purpose of this message is to remind all members of the L.C. Smith Collectors Association (LCSCA); and the Parker Gun Collectors Association (PGCA) who plan, and/or may be contemplating, attendance at the Southern Side by Side Championship in Sanford, North Carolina to mark your calendars and book your rooms now! This year’s event is scheduled for the weekend of April 27-29, with the Challenge shootout scheduled for Saturday, April 28. Every year this event seems to grow bigger and get better; and this year’s event is expected to continue that trend. So, if you’ve been unable to attend in the past; and have wondered what it is you’ve been missing, this is your chance to attend the event that has become the most talked about shotgun event in America! Therefore, the Directors of the LCSCA and the PGCA, along with Bill Kempfler of the Deep River Shooting School, cordially encourage your attendance and participation. This event is not only great fun, but has earned a great reputation for the place for renewal of old friendships, and for the fellowship it promotes within the double gun fraternity and between LCSCA and PGCA members. Again, if you’ve yet to attend, then take the plunge; come and explore two large tents jammed full of vintage guns, participate personally in membership meetings, experience Southern hospitality at its best, and use your shooting expertise to help win the Challenge Cup for your organization. The rules are simple:
1) Each shooter must be a member in good standing of the organization he/she is representing with dues paid current (membership rosters will be on hand and member names verified). New members are more than welcome to enter the event by joining their desired organization; but must submit membership application prior to, and with sufficient time remaining to participate in Event One, the Qualifying Round.
2) Each participant in the Challenge Cup Event will pay an entry fee of $10, with total entry fees collected being donated to charity at the completion of the Challenge Event. Each participant will pay his own cost for all 5-stand practice rounds he/she elects to shoot, and also for participation in Event One and Event Two at the rate established for the event by the Deep River Shooting School (for 2007 the rate will remain $10/round).
3) Competition is open to any hammer or hammerless model and grade Smith or Parker gun produced by the original companies (reproductions and modern guns capitalizing on these famous names are prohibited). There will be no limitation or restrictions on bore size so long as the gun used is of a bore size originally produced as a Smith gun (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20, 28 and .410 bore) or Parker gun (8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 24, 28, and .410 bore). Obviously some of the above options represent odd bore sizes or prototypes: but all members would be thrilled to see any such original gun; especially if its owner uses that gun in competition! Restored, modified, and altered Smith and Parker guns are also permitted to include those examples with cut barrels, sleeved barrels, altered or replaced stocks, and guns fitted with after-market screw-in chokes (although a shooter may not change his screw-in choke combination once his shooting event has commenced). Additionally, full length-aftermarket barrel tube inserts, with or without screw-in chokes, as well as chamber inserts are also acceptable. However, these devices are limited to DAMASCUS barreled guns ONLY, and cannot be changed or removed once shooting has begun; nor is a shooter allowed to change chokes in full-length tubes affixed with changeable chokes. As the primary purposes of this event are to encourage the use of these fine vintage guns, a spirited rivalry geared towards great fun, and to encourage fellowship and friendship among and between all LCSCA and PGCA members; industry, dealer sponsored, and professional shooters are necessarily prohibited from competition.
When shooting each event, it is mandatory that each participant use hearing protection devices (each plugs, etc) and wear shooting glasses. Additionally, each squad leader is allowed to ask the trapper to see a bird from each station prior to commencement of that round. Each shooter will be allowed one gun malfunction per round. As a shooter’s vintage gun may be fitted with an original and sometimes faulty single trigger, squad leaders are advised to keep “back-up guns” in reserve in the event of gun failure. When a gun failure occurs, the shooter is asked to point his gun in a safe direction and ask the scorer to verify the problem; at which time the target/s at that station are shot over. Targets broken, or established, in the event of a gun malfunction on true pairs will be scored, or not scored according to established 5-stand scoring rules. Remember, inadvertently leaving one’s safety slide in the “ON” position does not qualify as a gun malfunction. The official scorer’s decision on target scoring is final.
4) The shooting venue will be a 5-stand competition, and will consist of 25 targets per round. In Event One, each shooter will make his/her best effort to shoot the highest score possible. Two 5-stand fields will be available for 2007, and both fields will be available for practice from Thursday morning, the 26th, until qualifying begins on Friday (27th) afternoon around 1:00 PM. Once qualifying begins, the extra 5-stand field will continue to be available for practice thru the end of qualifying at mid-day on Saturday (28th). Again for 2007, pre-squadding will begin at 8:00 AM Friday morning and continue until all participants are signed up. As we can only qualify 15 shooters each hour, and as both organizations are expecting an increase in participation for 2007; it is highly recommended that attendees register early for their preferred time slot.
5) At the conclusion of Event One, the appropriate Smith and Parker officials will receive the scored results and determine the 10 highest member scores from each organization. As a reward for their fine effort in advancing to the Challenge Event, each member of both teams will receive a commemorative hat (red for Team Parker and green for Team LC) prior to shooting in for the Cup. These 20 individuals will then be notified to prepare for the final event, scheduled to begin at approximately 3:30PM. To determine his/her status for possible advancement to the final round, each shooter must report to the respective Smith/Parker exhibit booth for purposes of checking final qualifying results (a list of the 10 qualifying names will be prominently posted). In the event a team captain is unable to locate an Event Two qualifier by the deadline (30 minutes prior to the start of Cup round); that shooter is disqualified and the next highest qualifying shooter will be placed on the team instead.
6) In the final round, or Challenge Cup Event, each 10 person team is divided into two squads. A coin flip determines which organization shoots first; and each 5-person squad will then shoot 125 targets on a rotating basis (for instance, if Parker wins the toss and elects to field the first squad, the first Smith squad shoots in round two; and vice versa). At the close of competition, total scores for each squad are tabulated and the team with the most broken targets out of a possible total score of 250 will win the 2007 Challenge Cup for their respective organization.
7) Individual shooter awards will be presented for First, Second, Third, and Fourth place high scores. High scores for each award will be determined by the combined number of total broken targets in Event One and Event Two (the Challenge Cup Event). In the event of tied scores, the winner will be determined by the reverse long streak method (counting consecutive broken targets from the last target broken back to the last missed target). PGCA members will also have the Oscar Gaddy Award for the highest combined score in Event 1 and 2 with a Damascus, Bernard, Laminated or Twist barrel gun. In the event of a tie score, a shoot off will be held at the 5 stand if possible. The tie breaker rule will apply if the shoot off is not possible.
8) The Challenge Cup, and all individual awards, will be presented that same evening prior to the Pig Pickin’ event. The winning team will receive the Challenge Cup and have the honor of engraving their organization’s name and date on the cup to commerate their great achievement. The winning organization will also be presented a permanent team award. Then, in April, 2008 the winning organization must return the Challenge Cup to the Southern Side by Side, and be prepared to defend same.
As anyone can see our rules are simple. Member support of the Challenge and Challenge related events continues to be phenomenal; and, with interest and growth levels high, we continue our efforts to improve the event and make it even more exciting. With this in mind, members will be pleased to know of the following event “adjustments” for 2007. For the first time ever, Deep River will be operating two 5-stand layouts; the traditional layout that all past attendees are intimately familiar with, and a new layout at the old ZZ Bird ring (ZZ Bird shooting will be available, but only on Sunday the 29th). With this additional layout we hope to eliminate our oft experienced congestion problems relating to pre-qualifying practice time. THAT SAID, each field will remain available on a first-come, first-served basis; so come early to reserve your slot (and be a gentleman and not use so much time others don’t have a chance to shoot a round or two!). But the best advice is practice, practice, and practice before you arrive!
Also new for 2007 will be our approach to target presentation. In an effort to place all shooters on equal footing, traps this year will be reset prior to commencement of the Event One qualifying round; then reset again prior to the final Challenge Cup round. In this manner we intend to “level the shooting field” so that all participants will be shooting “new” targets at every stage of the event.
And those “jilted” shooters who always seem to wind up in a tie for 3rd place honors will be pleased to know that individual shooter awards have been expanded to include a 4th place trophy! Additionally, and in an effort to encourage and further expand participation, for 2007 we will present an award to one well deserving lady and youth (aged 16 and under) shooter for the top score in these two classes (which means that a real good lady, or youth shooter has a chance to capture multiple awards!). SO gentlemen, bring your brides (or your girlfriend if your bride won’t come along); and your sons/daughters, grandsons/granddaughters, nieces/nephews, or even the red-headed step-child nest door! Afterall, this is a family event; and afterwards, they’ll love you for life!
But the fun doesn’t stop here, no sir! Of all things, for 2007 we will have our first ever LC Smith vs Parker HAMMER GUN CHALLENGE! This event will be held on Sunday morning the 29th, at the original 5-stand field; and will begin at 8:30 AM. As this event was cobbled together at the eleventh hour, previously planned events will limit (due to time constraints) participation to only 30 shooters; therefore, participants will be pre-squadded on a first-come, first-served basis in conjunction with regular Challenge Event sign-ups. Entry fees are $10; and an award will be presented to the team with the best score, as well as to the individual shooter with the highest score (rules for the event will be identical to those of the Challenge Event). So bring your Smith and Parker hammer guns too, as this will be an exciting event to shoot and watch; and further, if this experience exposes a deep interest for a hammer gun event, Bill will assist our efforts to expand the event for 2008!
And the fun doesn’t end there either! Also new for 2008 is a high-gun award for the LC Smith shooter with the top score in our new 20-bore sporting clays event. This event will be shot in conjunction with the pre-planned 20-bore Deep River event, and the winner will receive the Bowman Cup. And finally, the LCSCA will close out this eventful weekend with our first ever Bogardus Cup. This award will be presented to the best score achieved in the Main Event with an LC Smith gun, and is named in honor of Captain H. H. Bogardus, probably the most famous and most highly regarded LC Smith company shooter of all time. It will truly be a great honor to take home this trophy! So guys, now you have two more excuses to bring along some extra hardware; and stay a bit longer for the extra fun (and for these two events, membership in the LCSCA is not required, but is encouraged!).
Again, LCSCA and PGGCA members will be allowed to park their vehicles in the open space directly behind the 5-stand (with the understanding that they remain parked during the day to avoid interference with other events and dust problems in display tents). Those leaving early should park elsewhere; and a designated vehicle should be parked near the clubhouse to accommodate group members requiring various “back and forth” errands. Bill Kempfler will arrange for member purchase of 5-stand tickets at the 5-stand field again this year, and will also provide a tent at the 5-stand for LCSCA and PGCA members needing a little shade. Both organizations are encouraged to use this accommodation as a hospitality area for member fellowship.
And for more great news, The Shooting Sportsman magazine will contribute its “no strings attached” sponsorship of the Challenge Event; but even better news is that they have increased their contribution to $750 for 2007! Be sure to attend their booth during your visit and subscribe to their fine magazine if you are already not a subscriber. Additional great news is that Bill Kempfler will supply all Event Participation Pins for 2007; and believe me when I tell you, our participation pins are so nice they alone are worth the effort to attend! And for those members, who have yet to meet Bill, make that effort when you attend; as, had it not been for his willingness to host this event and lend all the support he possibly could, the Challenge Event might not exist today. Make a point to let Bill know you appreciate his efforts!
Finally, all LCSCA members are invited to the annual meeting of the LC Smith Collectors Association to be held at 5:00 PM on April 27, 2007 at the Deep River Club House. This is a great time for all members to meet elected leadership, learn a little about how we conduct organizational business, and enjoy fellowship with one another.
Obviously it is impossible to cover every finite detail of the Challenge Event; so hopefully, this announcement and event description will be adequate for now. But the most important detail to remember is that we want YOU THERE! Since there can only be one winner; and, as both organizations will be more determined than ever to either win or retain the Challenger Cup for 2007, your support is imperative as we can’t win without YOU. Don’t miss this once-a-year opportunity; and by the way, it’s OK to bring your prejudiced opinions, openly pull for your team, and have an unabashed great time! In fact, that sort of behavior is encouraged.
For more information and advance team sign-up, PGCA members may contact Mark Conrad via email at peerless20@verizon.net; and LCSCA members may contact Tom Archer at 706/769-4932 or via email at thomas.archer@charter.net.
For those of you who will be traveling to the event and will need accommodations, you may contact Bill Kempfler at the Deep River Shooting School @ 919/774-7080, or via email at info@deepriver.net to receive complete listings and telephone numbers of all local hotels/motels. Bill will have many other shooting venues over the course of this great weekend, and will be more than happy for your participation in those also.
The 2007 LC SMITH vs. PARKER HAMMER GUN CHALLENGE
Rules and Instructions
1) The Event is scheduled to begin at 8:30 AM Sunday morning; and will be held at the traditional 5-stand layout (same location where the Challenge Event is held).
2) For this inaugural year of the event, time constraints will limit total participants in the hammer gun event to 30 shooters. Shooters will be pre-squadded on a first-come, first served basis (in the same manner as is done with pre-squadding Challenge Event participants); and shooters are encouraged to register for both events simultaneously.
3) The Hammer Gun Event Rules will be identical to those used for the original Challenge Event. To participate, a shooter must first be a member in good standing of the organization for whom the name on his gun indicates he is shooting. As regards “legal” guns used, the same rules apply to this event as to the Challenge Event (bore sizes, aftermarket modifications, barrel inserts, removable chokes, etc); therefore, if your’s is a Smith hammer gun made by L C Smith of Syracuse, NY or The Hunter Arms Company of Fulton, NY; or any Parker Brothers hammer gun manufactured at Meriden, Connecticut it is legal to shoot in the event. The one exception to those rules will be the scoring method used to determine the winning team, which will be addressed below (and again, this event is not open to professional shooters sponsored in any fashion by any company or manufacturer within the sporting industry).
4) The winning team will receive an appropriately marked Team Award; and the individual shooter with the highest number of broken targets in the Event will receive the Top Gun award.
5) The Entry Fee for this event will be $10; and each shooter will be responsible for the cost of his own targets ($10/round of 25).
6) Time constraints will demand that each team be limited to a maximum of 15 shooters from each organization. In the event one organization has unused time slots at the end of registration, while the other organization is fully registered with additional shooters wishing to register; any remaining open slots be offered to the other organization so that as many people as possible who wish to shoot will have that opportunity.
7) In a situation where a shooter is a member in good standing of both the PGCA and the LCSCA, that shooter may choose which organization he wishes to represent when registering for the event; and further, may choose to shoot with one organization in the Challenge Even and the other in the Hammer Gun Event.
8) Scoring for team and individual honors will be as follows: The Top Gun award will be presented to the single shooter who has the highest number of broken targets out of a possible 25 target total. In the event of a tie, the winner will be determined by the reverse long-streak method; or, in the event of multiple straights or long-string ties, a shoot-off. For determining the team award, all individual scores will be combined to determine the total number of broken targets; that number will then be divided by the number of shooters participating in the Event for each organization. The team with the highest individual average number of broken targets will then be declared the winner of the 2007 Team Award.
Finally, this first ever Hammer Gun Challenge Event represents the combined efforts of the LCSCA and the PGCA to increase member enjoyment of these fine vintage double guns by providing another shooting opportunity; and further, it is our belief that there will be solid member interest and support for an event of this type. If experience in 2007 demonstrates that our thinking for such an as this is correct, we are committed to work with Bill Kempfler to expand the size of this event for 2008.
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Mark Conrad
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 09:31 pm |
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| Well this post has been out here for two days and no replys. I have a question. How many of you are planning on shooting the hammer event on Sunday morning. We only have space for 15 and I plan to shoot. If we fill up, I will sit it out. See details on the bottom of the post. Harry Collins, Jim Hall, Bill Murphy?????
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 09:43 pm |
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| Mark, I didn't know you were waiting for replys. Thought this was an informational post. Anyways, I would like to shoot the hammer gun event on Sunday morning. Any idea how long it will take? The Michigan contingent plans on leaving sometime Sunday, but I don't know when. Rich Anderson might be interested too if we have time. Regards, Dave Miles
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David Purnell
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 10:10 pm |
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| Mark, I also would like to shoot in the hammer event if there is space for me. Dave Miles has a good question about length of time the event will take. My situation is a little more flexible, but it would probably be better if we can start the drive back south sometime Sunday.
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Tom Archer
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 01:11 am |
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Gentlemen:
We're only alotted 2 hours for the entire event (8:30-10:30 AM). Mark and I realized that travel requirements would place a limitation on some folks; but we are pre-squadding the event, so sign up for an early start time. We can always ship the Top Gun award to the winner, in the event he/she is required to leave early.
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 01:46 am |
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I will stay on for the hammergun event.
Best Austin
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Mark Conrad
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 10:35 am |
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| I put the post out there so you hammer gun lovers can make plans and bring your favorite hammer gun. The main event will start after the hammer gun event and Tom and I realized some of you may be gone by Sunday morning. It sounds like fun.
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Larry Frey
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 07:30 pm |
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Mark, As I recall at the first event Kevin McCormack was kind enough to supply all the the PGCA members who attended a very nice name tag bearing the Parker logo. This was very helpful in identifying members and made meeting new people much easier. I still have mine and wear it to all the shoots and shows etc. With all the new people coming this year it would be great if anyone had the means to do so and a list of those attending who do not already have one could produce a similar type of tag. Just a thought. Larry
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John Davis
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 07:37 pm |
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| Mark, if room is available I'd like to shoot in the hammer event as well.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 07:52 pm |
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| I will be there for the Parker-L.C.Smith challenge and will shoot the hammer gun event. I do not know how to make name tags, but would like to have a 2007 name tag if someone will make them. The participant pins are already coveted collectors items. Bill Murphy Last edited on Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 07:54 pm by Bill Murphy
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Carl Brandt
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Posted: Thu Feb 22nd, 2007 10:21 pm |
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Mark,
I would like to shoot the Hammer Gun event too. One caveat is that I will need to have one of the damascus barrel gurus at the shoot measure the barrels thickness and have a look at the pits in my "new" lifter and pronounce it shootable. This could be a real hoot of a shoot. If it dosn't pass I will be glad to help out with the administrative duties.
Carl.
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Tom Carter
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 11:37 pm |
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Hi Mark, I would like to shoot the hammer event if you have room for me. Cheers, Tom
____________________
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Frank Halsey
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 04:36 pm |
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| I would love to shoot in the hammer event. count me in, please. I will be there from thursday thru sunday. I think it's a great idea. Thanks, frank
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C Roger Giles
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 08:33 pm |
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FRANK;
You found your way to the BBS, nice to know you are alive.
I won't be at the Southern this year, but in spirit and cheering for Team Parker.
Roger
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Frank Halsey
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Posted: Wed Feb 28th, 2007 03:36 am |
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ROGER, I AM ALWAYS HERE, LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. YOU CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING BY TALKING, ALONE BY LISTENING. ( OR READING) DON'T MAKE ME COME UP THERE AND GET YOU. WE NEED YOU AT THE MEET. FRANK Last edited on Wed Feb 28th, 2007 03:37 am by Frank Halsey
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Ron G Garrido
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Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 02:28 am |
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Mark,
Let me know if there is still room and I will bring a hammer gun also, sounds like fun!
Thanks
Ron G.
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Mark Conrad
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Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 12:38 pm |
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| It looks like we will have space. Please sign up as soon as you get there.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 06:36 pm |
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The PGCA will have a display, three tables again, so if any members have display worthy guns or guns that they would like to show and tell, please bring them. We will have members manning the tables, so you can leave the gun(s) there while you shoot.
I have heard from a couple members who are bringing a gun or two to sell, in addition to the usual Parker dealers, so if a person is interested in acquiring a gun , you might find something.
____________________
Bruce Day
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Scott Janowski
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 05:59 pm |
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Can any one explain why full length tubes are limited to Damascus barreled guns only?
I have a Parker Trap gun with Full chokes that I do not want to alter. I would be willing to tube it with full length tubes and shoot it with the 20 28, and 410.
As we all know small bore guns are expensive and hard to find, why not let the shooters use tubes?
Or is this just a way to limit the competition to the elite few?
Scott
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Tom Archer
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 12:01 am |
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Scott:
For purposes of a response to your questions, I will assume that you a Challenge Event novice; and by accepting that presumption, must therefore also accept as fact that you have not been sipping some sort of "Konspiracy Kool-aid" concoction. First of all, full length tubes limited only to guns with Damascus barrels was the idea of avid shooter, PGCA member, and event coordinator Mark Conrad; and is an idea for which I am in full agreement given the fact that many shooters still refuse to shoot an otherwise fine Damascus gun simply because of its Damascus barrels. Who among us is not fascinated with a cute little 28 or 410-bore, but if you ask anyone who has participated in past Challenge Events, they will tell you it is a 12-bore event; that said, no original factory bore-size is excluded, but the facts are very clear as regards scores recorded with 12-bore guns as compared to scores recorded with other (larger and smaller) bore sizes. Given the fact that your Parker is a 12-bore with tight chokes (for closer shots folks use spreader loads), most Event veterans (given the range of some of the Challenge targets) would think you already have a distinct advantage (should you chose to accept the Challenge!). As to any allegations that Mark and I have in any way tried to "limit competition", I would encourage you to again read the above rules (but a little slower this time thru); as even the most novice shooter/collector within our "elite" contingent can easily understand that any gun with the original name of Parker or LC Smith on the frame is a legal war club.
As to me personally, I certainly have no issues with anyone, and especially as regards PGCA paraticipants, tubing his gun (Damascus or Steel) to a small bore for this event; even though doing so would constitute an act of sheer stupidity on the part of any serious event competitor; but until that rule is changed, and it's now too late for this year, "the rules is what they is" (but what a great idea! Why if only all Team Parker participants could be required to shoot tubed .410s next year; then Team LC might actually be able to compete on an equal basis!). But don't be discouraged simply because you wouldn't be allowed to shoot a tubed steel-barreled Parker in the 2007 Challenge, Bill Kempfler will have a full spectrum of sub-guage events; so tube that Parker and come on down and shoot to your hearts content, but I can assure you that any idea that Mark and I have conspired in any manner to limit participation to the "elite few" is absolutely ludicous (then wait, maybe that's not such a ludicrus thought afterall, maybe we are talking about the "elite few"; have you checked Parker prices lately?) Tom Archer
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