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Dave Miles
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 04:12 pm |
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When I first stated shooting Damascus and Twist Parkers. I bought the ARMUSA loads, taht told you there PSI. But I went one step further and send them to Tom Armbrust for verification. I have since started reloading my own for 10,12, and 16 gauges. I've also spent well over $100.00 sending my reloads in for testing. I feel quite confident in the PSI of my reloads, because I know for sure where they are in PSI. If I need to switch components for some reason, the load will be tested before it's fired in one of my guns. 12 gauge are pretty simple, there are lots of low pressure loads available for those. Just my feelings on the subject. 
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weston croft-temp
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 04:39 pm |
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Dave Miles wrote: When I first stated shooting Damascus and Twist Parkers. I bought the ARMUSA loads, taht told you there PSI. But I went one step further and send them to Tom Armbrust for verification. I have since started reloading my own for 10,12, and 16 gauges.
Did you find that Tom Armbrust's results were at odds with Armusa's published figures?
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 04:56 pm |
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| Weston, the only ones I had tested were the Vintage 16's. If I remember correctly, armusa advertised them as 6800 PSI. Tom found them to be 7200 - 7300 PSI. This was still exceptable to me, because now I knew for sure. I also had some Polywad Doublewide spreader loads tested, they came back at 5800 PSI. And the Polywad Vintage were at 6500 PSI. These were 7/8 oz. loads. The ARMUSA loads are 1 oz. All three loads averaged about 1200 Fps
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 05:48 pm |
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Bill, I know exactly of which you speak - even called and talked to all the XXX folks myself and heard the same story. I agree with you completely. I just meant the few "boutique" companies, as you called them, who are willing to PUBLISH their pressures. One I can't figure out, though, is Kent. They do not PUBLISH their pressures, but will give you the actual PRESSURE FIGURES in psi for any load they make if you call and ask (?!).
Jim
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 06:36 pm |
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| The Kent people are my neighbors over here in border country and my shooting buddies purchase no-tox and vintage type shells from them in quantity at the loading dock. I'm glad to hear that they will tell you the PSI over the phone, but I sure would like to see it in print. Unfortunately, I am more a $3.99 a box or reload type of guy, so I don't have to do anything but pull the handle and give sage advice. I seldom actually purchase this stuff. I own some RST stuff because Morris Baker is a wonderful friend and is loading short tens, but the other companies are over the limit in dollars per box in my opinion. Someone should find out if RST is publishing pressure data, because owners Morris and Alex are each "one of us". Alex is probably the first shooter in history to qualify for the Parker team at Sanford with a 16 gauge. Last edited on Wed Jun 14th, 2006 03:24 pm by Bill Murphy
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King Brown
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 06:49 pm |
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Ed could answer your question better than I, Jim. His testing and contribution is well known to Kent Cartridge Canada. All Kent shells are loaded to SAAMI specs and the product within allowances of a couple hundred psi and velocity, one way or the other. Temperatures affect numbers and not every batch of powder is the same.
Kent, which is a small market, puts more in their catalogues than the big manufacturers (who may not care one way or the other). There are some liability concerns, of course. They know some of us are more prudent than others when it comes to older guns. The main thing is that there's a toll-free number to get answers to any questions.
My personal opinion is that TM is more appropriate for me than bismuth for waterfowling. I have a notion that bismuth and TM are comparable only in that they are non-toxic. Using only what luck I'm having as evidence, it seems TM pellet physical properties are more lethal. Two-thirds of my waterfowling is re-loaded bismuth, however, to keep the costs down.
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Jent P Mitchell III
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 14th, 2006 02:54 pm |
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Good Morning from Virginia Everyone, A good friend of mine, who lives in Pennsylvania, and shoots side by sides almost exclusively and voraciously, visited with me last night. I asked my friend from Pennsylvania if he had heard anything or knew anything about a Parker damascus barrelled shotgun failure that had occurred recently. He answered NO. He stated that he had not heard anything about a barrel failure in Pennsylvania recently. This observation that no damascus barrel failure of any type had occurred recently in Pennsylvania is from a fellow PGCA member and LCS Collectors member. This gentleman probably shoots at more venues in Pennsylvania with a side by side then any other resident of Pennsylvania. This fellow shooter and collector is in contact with other side by side shooters and collectors daily and he had not heard anything about a barrel failure occurring in Pennsylvania recently.
Today I called two of the largest side by side gun dealers/gunsmiths that are located in Pennsylvania and asked if they had heard anything about a recent damascus barrel failure, they had not heard of any.
I am strongly led to believe that no Parker damascus barrel failure occurred in Pennsylvania recently. If someone has knowledge of a damascus barrel failure in Pennsylvania or anywhere that can be documented please post it so that all of us can learn and gain knowledge.
Good Shooting To You All, Jent
cell phone 703-855-1110
jentpmitchell@msn.com
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Wed Jun 14th, 2006 05:49 pm |
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All I'll say is that Kent makes a hell of a cartridge. They're the duck killingest thing I've fired since they outlawed Winchester XX 3 inch lead #6.
The boys in the UK are figuring out how to reload it too, they call it ITM over there. I have a friend that's working up a 4 bore cartridge with it actually. I fired some of his bismuth 4 bore reloads while I was there in December and they were pretty good stuff. But the ITM will top it once he gets it figured out.
For damascus guns they use a heavy mylar wrapper around the shot charge to protect the barrels from damage. It's not like steel but it's still a little harder than lead so better safe than sorry.
Wish they'd sell the loose shot over here so we could all give it a try. But Kent wants to sell loaded cartridges, not reloading supplies and I can understand that.
I finally found out why Kent doesn't load a 3 1/2 inch 10 gauge cartridge. Most of their R&D is done in the UK and they've not had any luck keeping them down to acceptable chamber pressures so far.
Destry
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Andy Schultz
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 12:24 pm |
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Okay, no one knows anything so the barrel failure never happened at the club last month.
Thanks for the effort Jent and others have put forth to follow up on a possible learning opportunity for damascus shooters. No need for anyone to ask around at the UP shoot this weekend. Enjoy your weekend!
-Andy
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 02:00 pm |
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| I would assume that any barrel failure would be put on our back burners unless someone could cut the offending barrel apart and measure the wall thickness as well as getting a good description of the loads used. With sensible loads and good wall thickness, I think most of us agree that Sherman Bell has given us more information on the subject than one anonymous "blowup" could give. I have a blown up and dismantled high condition (otherwise) smallbore Parker hammer gun. The wall thickness at the burst point is like notebook paper. I have no idea how it got that way, but it could have been detected with a Manson gauge by anyone contemplating shooting it. There was absolutely no mystery about the cause of the burst.
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Gregory Dershem
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 02:07 pm |
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Andy:
Could this be it? Over on the Upland Journal BBS, under Guns & Ammunition and now on page two, I think, is a thread entitled Holyyy sh__. Sounded like a 28 ga. hammergun, possibly an H&H. I'm too technologically illiterate to try posting a link.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 03:04 pm |
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Andy Schultz wrote:
possible learning opportunity for damascus shooters
-Andy
Like don't mess up reloading and don't force a cartridge into a gun when there is obviously something wrong with it? Like a cocked wad that could/would create an overpressure?
Perhaps the owner/shooter was embarrassed and hadn't wanted to say anything.
Could this be a possible learning opportunity for any shotgun shooter/reloader and not only those of us who shoot Damascus barreled guns?
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Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 03:29 pm |
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| Gregory D. suggested a thread on another site that discusses a recent blowup. I can't believe there are so many people out there that don't understand reloading yet still discuss it and give advice on the internet. The posters on that site are absolutely uninformed. They don't have a clue, yet the ones that don't think that reloading is some kind of black magic are actually reloading and giving advice. The ones that think reloading is black magic still give advice. I'm sure it is a great bird hunting site, but the gun section is scary. As I recall, only one poster on the entire thread mildly suggested we heed rule #1 of reloading; use only published loads. Obviously, some of us violate that rule, but only after years of experience and after careful study of our components. Last edited on Thu Jun 15th, 2006 03:55 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 03:40 pm |
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Bill, I have made mistakes reloading, particularly when using my old MEC 600Jr and before I moved to the new progressive MEC . I still have the 600 for 16ga. Its easier to fiddle with the 600 charge bar and get too much powder or shot. I have also cocked wads. I have shot these bad loads but luckily every time has been in a Mod 21 , and I don't know what it would take to blow one of them up.
IIf in doubt, throw out the shell.
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Bruce Day
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Don Larson
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 05:07 pm |
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| Bruce...Maybe you should just sell me that 21 win 16 so as not to destroy it as the result of a reloading error...Don...
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Don Larson
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 05:16 pm |
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Boys...Would my not jumping on a very nice GH 12 Damascus gun deal be considered a damascus failure that accured here in Wisc. ...Don...
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 05:53 pm |
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| There is a very nice Model 21 16 gauge on gunsamerica that was victim to an ammunition (or brain) malfunction. Your chance to pick up a M21 16 cheap.
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 06:42 pm |
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| I have a Mod 21 12ga and a 16ga. Its the 16ga that is almost perfect dimensions and feel. But its the 12ga that I know I have overloaded a couple times. But it never seems to mind.
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Bruce Day
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Don Larson
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Posted: Thu Jun 15th, 2006 08:11 pm |
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| Bill...would that be the short 24 " barrel gun or is it listed under something other than win.21...Thanks...Don...
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Fri Jun 16th, 2006 01:57 am |
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Gentlemen: I was present (30 feet away) at the accident reported on the Upland BBS, and carried to this BBS. The shooter was a long time shooting companion, and a good friend. He is one of the pioneers of modern side by side competition, and quite a successful competitor. The gun involved was not a Parker, and he is not (yet) a PGCA member; he has taken his burst gun to several five stand and other gatherings where members of his association were present to have them examine it, and the piece of it removed from him. I have not spoken previously, because I felt it improper for the Editor of Parker Pages to speak prior to publication of this event in the newsletter, or on the website of that association. The comments I make here reflect only some observed and known facts with respect to the post on this BBS relative to the "Upland BBS" post.
The gun was not a Holland hammer 28, but was a very lovely high grade hammerless 28, that carried proof marks and remained in proof. The shooter has been using a hammer Holland since the accident, which may account for the citation of the Holland.
The title of the "Upland " post is essentially a direct quote of the first statement by the four other shooters on hand when this accident happened.
Best, Austin
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