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Andy Schultz
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Posted: Thu Jun 8th, 2006 03:53 pm |
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Does anyone have details on the Pakrer damascus-barreled gun that had a barrel failure a couple of weeks ago at a sporting club in Pennsy? I heard about it through the rumour mill but details were a bit foggy.
-Andy
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Thu Jun 8th, 2006 05:02 pm |
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That's all I shoot is Damascus Parkers, and I'm not the least concerned about my guns. But I'd be interested in hearing the story behind this failure. More than likely the fault of the shooter and not the gun. 
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Tom Flanigan
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Posted: Thu Jun 8th, 2006 07:37 pm |
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| I'd sure like to hear the details of that failure. I've been shooting Damascus for a little over 40 years and never had a problem. In the early days, before I knew better and began loading shells with the right pressure, I even used "hot" trap loads. The only barrel failure that I have ever experienced was with Titanic steel. Unfortunately, I believe I somehow loaded a primer in with the powder. The barrels bulged in the chamber area. Ruined a really nice gun.
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 12:19 am |
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| Damascus barrels are a time bomb. I can't imagine why anyone would shoot them and endanger themselves and their shooting partners. Last edited on Fri Jun 9th, 2006 07:32 pm by Phil Murphy
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 02:37 am |
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Fluid steel barrels are a time bomb too. Everything made by man will fail at some point in it's life. I have no fear of either Damascus or fluid steel barrels but I have equal respect for both and plan to continue shooting both with appropriate loads.
Dean
And yes, It will be interesting to learn the cause of the failure. My money's on the human error factor too.
Last edited on Fri Jun 9th, 2006 02:39 am by Dean Romig
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Destry Hoffard
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 05:14 am |
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Phil,
I think I've seen you with one or two in your hands haven't I???
Destry
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 10:06 am |
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Destry, I was just going to say the same thing.
Phil, I'll take that PH, 16 off your hands, and any other Damascus gun you have. I happen to think your a nice guy, and I wouldn't want you to get hurt. Just bring them to the U.P. and we'll work something out.
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Harry Collins
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 12:21 pm |
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Hey, boys. I'll shoot Damascus and fluid steel if I have to. I'm shooting "Twist" steel Parkers!
Harry
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 01:10 pm |
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| Jent Mitchell is being very quiet. A guy who goes to "all the shoots" surely knows what the deal is.
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 02:45 pm |
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So what if they blow up now and then - what do you want from 100+ year old steel made into essentially thick bed springs and then stuffed with 1 1/8 oz. high-antimony 7 1/2s in front of 20+ grains of 700X.
Everyone by now should now the "Damascus Protocols" - large frame guns, minimum bbl. wall thickness, barely-detectable to nonexistent pitting, no dents, bulges, or "cuts" in the bbl. walls. Wear your safety glasses, chain-mail fish-cleaning gloves (in case a forend-area eruption occurs), keep your head down and follow through.
At the Hidden Hollow classic a few weeks ago, a young shooter's modern el cheapo O/U (don't remember the make) blew out the lower bbl. just under the forend, totalling the gun. At the price of repair or replacement he decided to just make it his "duty" trap gun and start looking for a real gun to shoot clays with. It was great - before the blowout, I heard him arguing with Steve Cobb about how "overpriced" two of his nice old Superposeds on the rack were. The old, "why should I pay 3 grand for a 50-year-old gun when I can get a brand new one for that?" After the blowout when things settled down, we smoked more cigars as we waved the vintage SPs around. Between the aroma of the cigar smoke and the sound of those SP breeches closing, all I could do was smile. KBM
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 04:11 pm |
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| One of those lightweight ,inexpensive doubles, fluid steel , ruptured at the Southern SxS while shooting ZZ birds. Larry Frey saw it( it wasn't Larry's gun) and said it was about an 8 " rip along the barrel. The shooter's hand was intact but badly bruised. Larry said he was shooting a heavy load, no obstruction. (
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 07:41 pm |
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Dave,
The local PD and church groups are hosting a "no questions asked" gun turn in. They're offering a $100.00 K-Mart gift certificate for each gun. It sounds like a great opportunity to dump that damascus crap. I have 6 or seven. So that should bring seven hundred bucks. I need the money and I can't wait until the UP SxS. I'm going to use the money to buy a Baikal SxS with 26" barrels and 3.5" chambers. It should be a fine goose gun. Hell, with $700.00 I could get a pair of 'em.
Phil
Last edited on Fri Jun 9th, 2006 07:57 pm by Phil Murphy
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 10:34 pm |
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See Ya at the U.P. Mr. Murphy. 
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Bill Zachow
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 11:42 pm |
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| Illinois must be a piker state. Only $100? Syracuse NY is offering $200.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Sun Jun 11th, 2006 02:35 am |
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| And the Boston PD is now offering $200 as well. That's up 100% from their last buy-back program but this time it's not a cash deal... they're giving gift certificates worth $200 (retail) at a big chain store. I guess they figure that way the buy-back money won't go up somebody's nose or in their arm... how commendable...
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Jent P Mitchell III
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Jun 12th, 2006 02:06 pm |
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Hello Bill Murphy and all the rest of my nine fingered, one eyed, damascus barrelled shotgun shooting friends.
I have just returned from J and P Hunting Lodge and Sporting Clays where we had a great shotgun shoot to honor the HAVRE de GRACE Decoy Museum. There was a special competition held within the main event for shooters of vintage side by side shotguns. Several members of GROUSE HALL attended this great Maryland shotgun shoot and brought along their vintage side by sides to show and shoot. Brian Buckman of Grouse Hall won the award for BEST DRESSED and BIGGEST GUN. BB was shooting his Parker Under Lifter Damascus Barrelled 10 gauge side by side. Several other members of Grouse Hall were shooting damascus barrelled Parkers that were a little newer than Brian's, the ones with no visible hammers, the ones Mr Parker calls hammerless guns. One friend of the PGCA was shooting a rabbit earred hammer shotgun, which was made in England, and he shot sufficiently well with it. I heard someone remark that it was a rather expensive gun. I recall that the makers name engraved on the gun began with a P, but it was not Parker, but a short name like Parker. Oh well, maybe someone else who was at the shoot will recall the name on the shotgun. It did seem to work well.
As to the rumor about a Parker damascus barrelled shotgun experiencing a failure of some sort, I have not heard anything. It must be just a rumor. It is probably a rumor started by the same people who convinced us that the only ethical way to shoot ducks and geese is with NON TOXIC SHOT. Well they fooled us once, they probably are confident that they can fool us again. The next thing the good doers will want to do for us is outlaw our dangerous damascus barrelled shotguns and protect us from ourselves.
Well I had better sign off this computer and get busy doing the honey do list that Anne left for me to do or I will get done in by Anne when she done gitts home.
Good Shooting To You All, Jent
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Andy Schultz
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 12:25 pm |
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JPM III et al, it is not a rumour about the damascus barrel failure. Anyone going to the UP Shoot, why not ask around? It is interesting, an article is published that seems to give the green flag to shooting damascus guns and the talk groups light up with people slapping each other on the backs and saying they knew it was okay all along. But then when an incident happens nary a word is passed to help others avoid the same circumstances.
-Andy
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 12:42 pm |
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| The problem with proclaiming Damascus to be OK with CIP, MIT, USA, or whatever initials of load is that not everyone knows what the heck they are reading or what the initials mean. I am not a big advocate of store bought loads of any kind for Damascus because most are acceptable pressure by urban myth, not by information provided by the makers. Damascus (or skinny walled fluid steel) should be shot only with home made ammunition with recipes actually posted in published loading manuals. Not to be preachy, (perish the thought), but "end of story".
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 01:07 pm |
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Andy,
I find the opposite to be true. Whenever a damascus gun fails it becomes a hot topic of discussion amongst those who know about it, and the word gets out. Just recently a Remington twist steel hammer gun let go in the left tube causing substantial damage to the shooter's forearm (it was repairable, but took quite a few stitches). The owner/shooter posted pics of the gun and his arm on the gunshop.com website and told the circumstances he experienced before the failure. Many people theorized as to the cause, and many blamed the barrels as being inherently weak. The shooter, who posts under the name "Bladesmith", finally determined the cause. He had been loading BP equivalent loads using Pyrodex (he thought), but somehow he had gotten mixed up on what was in the hopper. Instead, he actually had PB smokeless in the hopper, with some Pyrodex mixed in. Some of the shells were straight PB, some a mixture of PB and Pyrodex, and some straight Pyrodex. He sent some of the shells to Tom Armbrust and discovered that some of the pressures were over double the SAAMI max pressure, and would have likely burst any barrel, whether modern or antique. The discussion even spilled over on to this board. The owner subsequently bought a Parker hammer gun, and now frequents this board. This discussion, on both boards, was as thoroughly discussed as I can imagine a topic could be. Fortunately, the owner was big enough to admit his mistake in public, rather than let people draw inaccurate conclusions so that he could dodge the blame. In my opinion, he did us all a great service by searching for the cause and letting the chips fall where they may.
Bill - if you're "preaching", I'm in the "amen corner". Preach on, Brother! However, there are a few manufacturers who DO produce some loads that are very low pressure, and they publish their pressures. I see no problem with that. Also, if you are loading your own, obviously (as the above mentioned shooter demonstrated) it requires more than just "thinking" you are following the recipe. It was a simple mistake that anyone could make. You gotta make sure.
Jim
Last edited on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 01:15 pm by Jim Williams
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 03:56 pm |
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| Jim, I realize that some companies publish pressure levels of their boutique loads. However, most internet chat goes about like this. "What do I use in my old short chambered gun?" "Use XXX, they are 7500 psi and should be safe." "I bought a box of XXX but there is no info on the box." "Well, call the XXX toll free number and ask them." "I talked to the XXX rep on the toll free number and he said they didn't publish pressure figures." "Well, did he say you could use them in your gun?" "Well, actually, no, he didn't. He said to have my gun checked over." "Then can you use XXX shells?" "He said their XXX shells were safe to use in any gun that had been checked over." In my opinion, if the XXX company doesn't publish pressure figures, I am not using their shells in my Damascus or other composite barrel gun. I want to see the writing on the box if I am going to use store bought shells. Otherwise I will reload to conservative published pressure specifications. I haven't blown one up in 48 years of shooting Damascus. We should be especially careful of smallbores and large bores with thin looking chamber areas like #1 frame Parkers and lightweight Prussian Dalys which also have very thin chamber walls. It is very difficult to trust the ammunition companies to load 20 gauge shells to reasonable pressures and almost as hard to find low pressure loads in the manuals. Before I would fire a Damascus or Twist steel 20 or 16 gauge zero frame Parker, I would measure wall thickness and still use my own published handloads even if wall thickness measured a safe level.
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