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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 08:37 am |
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| My first forum posting. I have 3 Parkers, with hopefully MANY more on the way, so to speak; a 1934 vhe 20 that was my mothers and which I have been shooting for 30 yrs, and two vh 12's, one a very nice 26" 1-1/2 frame straight grip with a leather covered pad that I seem to be deadly with. The other 12 is a very nice 85%? 28" 1-1/2 frame, two-bead, all original M/F gun but the lump/hook under the barrels seems narrow and the barrels a bit sloppy when you open the gun and the forend is a bit sloppy side to side. All the serial numbers match so it seems original and I can't tell that any metal has been removed to make it this way. This is the only Parker I have ever seen that was loose like this without being very worn, which this gun is not. Anyone else have a Parker that is loose like this and does anyone have suggestions for who can repair it? I tend to shoot clays a lot and am very careful with opening, but the sides of the hook and such are getting scored up from use.
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Andy Schultz
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 12:13 pm |
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Just my opinion but I do shoot clays very much so I have some experience with same. You said you want to shoot clays a lot. If you want to shoot for score, using three different guns, I doubt you'll ever get good at it. On the other hand if you just want to shoot for fun, you can have a blast. That said, a lot of people claim that they just shoot for fun, but then when they miss a few birds at a station, you see them whining or showing their displeasure by simulating that they're breaking the gunstock against the cage or a nearby tree. Anyway, if you do truly want to shoot clays with the loose gun that's the subject of your post, I suppose you can send it to an expert like Turnbull, etc. and have him build up the sides of the hook and its pin radius. That's going to be expensive and you may put a lot more in the gun than if you just reserved it for hunting, and used one of your others for clays. Better yet, you might want to get a modern double like a M21, M23, BSS, Poli, etc. that is more suitable for extensive shooting with modern 10,000 psi ammo, without having to make up or buy special low pressure loads for your Parker. In the latter scenario you can keep the Parker for special hunts and occasional use, therby preserving its history and condition.
-Andy
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 05:43 pm |
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Richard: Thanks for giving me an excuse to spend an hour measuring some Parkers. I am not sure what you mean by the underlug "looking thin". I measured several, in the serial range 46000 through 232000; two were hammerguns (46000 and 69000), one was a late lifter hammergun (104000); the entire hammerless range is included. The "thinnest" measured .394 inches, the "thickest" .399 inches. These guns included 1, 1 1/2, 2 , and 3 frames.
The underlug is among the hardest of Parker parts. It was cut to profile, and probably surface ground to .400inches. The width dimensions of this part are critical, because the barrels were fitted to the lug, and then forge brazed to form a barrel set. An outsize lug would upset the center to center distance of the barrels, throwing off the dimensions of every subsequent operation. The lug became quite covered with scale in the brazing and soldering operations, and appears to have been brushed, filed and polished to the flat shiny condition we see. These hand operations probably account for the .005inch variation.
Rebluing barrels may cause the underlug to "grow" by .005, and refuse to close on the original frame until repolished. This gives an indication of the precision of this fit - .001 to .002 inch on each side. Cut a 1 inch by 2 inch piece from a newspaper page; open the gun and slip this paper across the watertable beneath the rear lug. Attempt to close the gun, but do it gently. This paper shim should prevent the gun from closing. If it begins to close, stop and try two thicknesses of newspaper; each thickness indicates a clearance of .003 inches on each side. A tight Parker will close about half way with a thickness of newspaper on either side.
Remove the barrels from the frame, and cut another piece of newspaper 3/8 by 1/2 inch. Put a drop of light oil on the paper, and stick it inside the hook, or on the roll, which ever is easiest for you. Reassemble the barrels, if the gun closes there is .002 - .003 clearance in the hinge. If the gun does not close, try a similar size piece of teflon pipe tape; it is about .0015 inches thick.
If you have a vernier, measure the width of the lug by sliding the jaws along each side from the hook joint. This makes it easy to square the jaws on the sides, and provides a maximum width if there is any irregularity.
I think we would all like to see your results.
Best, Austin
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 06:40 pm |
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I'll answer both replies here. Thanks for the input all who did reply. I shoot for recreation and I shoot clays with the guns I intend to shoot birds with. I don't shoot competition and would consider shooting any 'new' gun, tho I do have a new Merkel 147E for ducks/steel shot, at upland birds bordering on blasphemous; I'm too old to shoot anything but what makes me very happy...and that would be a nice Parker... I'm sure you ALL understand that one!
I am currently running a very remote oils seismics camp in Russia so haven't the gun at hand to do the suggested measurments, but I can assure you, the underlug on this gun rattles. It is very loose. My other vh is very tight. It just does not seem right. I have considered using very thin shim material to gauge the clearance and will make the effort when I get out of the gulag here in late April. The gun is all original, no rebluing of the barrels. It looks nearly brand new from 4' away. I also understand the consequences of having it fixed and making sure the barrels are still aligned; seems like a tough job for even a good gunsmith. That's why I am not doing anything, if at all, until I have all available advice and information. I don't use this gun that much for clays or birds these days really. I've become too good a shot and have pulped a few close in Montana pheasants with it so have gone to a shorter gun with more open chokes. It sure breaks clays nicely out at 60yds and over with that full choke though and fits me better than my other two Parkers. Stay tuned; I'll be back and am posting another issue under a new topic now.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 06:53 pm |
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| I should add that this loose vh is very tight at the face; no problem there at all, and the lever settles perfectly to the right. It's just side to side looseness when you open the gun. I think this gun may have been made on Friday afternoon or Monday morning as the dolls head does not fit nearly as precisely as my other two guns. I'm guessing it's just 'one of those guns' that didn't get put together as well as most at the factory.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 10:56 pm |
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| What is the serial number of the gun that is loose when open and has a bad fit at the doll's head? I have had rather high condition guns loose when open. Apparently the factory would get a little lazy and tighten up such guns with more tension on the forend lug. Again, apparently this fix didn't last too long if that's what they actually did. However, a bad fit at the doll's head is a sign of a possible non original set of barrels. Does the length of the barrels on the gun match what the serialization book says it should be? A mismatch here would be a clue about the source of the bad doll's head fit.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 12:20 am |
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| Don't have the serial number here; I'm working in remote Russia and live in Alaska. The serial numbers all match but I have not seen a Parker this loose unless rebarreled. It locks up very tight at the face, but the lug is just too narrow. I really do think it was fit by someone on a Friday afternoon and not inspected properly if at all. It shoots just fine but the lug is getting too scored up for my tastes. I've shot many many thousands of rounds through my vhe 20 over the past 30 yrs and it has hardly a scuff on the lug and locks up as tight today as it likely did when made in 1934.I still have to lightly whack the forend in place when assembling it. Parkers are amazing that way. By the time I had shot my gorgeous new Merkel 300rds the lever had settled from nicely right to the middle... it's on the block soon and will be replaced with a Parker with bismuth loads. Life is too short...
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Andy Schultz
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 01:01 am |
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Richard, just wondering? Are you flying in and out of Petropavlosk? Last time I flew in there, there were some rusty submarines hauled up on the shore near the airport and it looked like the hulls were being cut up to make wood stoves!
-Andy
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 03:15 am |
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| I did come in through PPK and saw lots of junk along the shore while circling to land but didn't see subs. Wouldn't surprise me though. Didn't spend any time in PPK; got right into a van and drove up to Anavgai for a heli ride into camp here on hte Black River. We're north of PPK near Tigil. It's spring. 40deg today and sunny.
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Eric Eis
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 12:16 pm |
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| Richard just wondering too what line of work are you in? Eric
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 02:50 pm |
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| Richard, in researching Parker Brothers records for PGCA, the research committee noticed a number of orders for interesting guns to be shipped to areas you mention. Keep your eyes open. One order was obviously for a trio of whalers. They may be in a Siberian maritime museum if such a thing exists. Last edited on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 02:55 pm by Bill Murphy
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 06:49 pm |
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| I'm a minerals geologist, originally from Ortonville Michigan. I also so remote camp management in Alaska and Antarctica and wherever in my spare time.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 06:58 pm |
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| There are occasional Parkers on racks in Anchorage. I have never seen one for sale in Fairbanks where I have lived for 20 yrs. I bought both the good ones I found at a good shop in Anchorage and he knows I'm always looking. I'd love to make some of the shows I see mentioned on the forum, but it will likely not happen as long as I live in Alaska. We actually have another Parker in the family, a 12ga and a Trojan I think. I have not seen it in decades; a brother has it. When I was 14 I used to handload 2" very light shells for it using a turn of the century Winchester kit and hunt sparrows in our fields in summer until one day the back 1" or so of the top rib separated, nearly deafening me. It's still in that condition and has not been shot since 1964. How many Parkers that you know of have had a rib separation like that?
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 06:59 pm |
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| Ahh. You likely meant here in Russia. If I get time in PPK I'll look for a museum.
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Eric Eis
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 07:03 pm |
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| Richard you were born right around the corner from me. I live in Commerce MI. I figured you were in that line of work. Eric
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 07:14 pm |
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| I know the area well. I used to live near Kirk in the Hills church, at Franklin Rd and Lone Pine rd. in Bloomfield Hills. My Grandmother had a house on Cooley Lake where my fishing career started in the middle 50's... I do some flying out of Pontiac airport when in Michigan in November doing "deer control"... It's a different world there now than when I was there for sure.
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Fred Preston
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 09:28 pm |
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This is leaving the original thread topic; but I lived with my grandfather in Flushing during the War years, he worked at the Grand Blanc tank plant. I believe Mr. Penny is a few miles north. Small world.
Mr. Flanders, we have a most expert and knowledgible Parkerphile PGCA member who is well acquainted wit the south polar regions if he cares to mention it.
Last edited on Fri Mar 24th, 2006 09:37 pm by Fred Preston
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Mar 24th, 2006 09:41 pm |
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| Let's see if he crawls out of his snowbank and joins the fun...
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Sat Mar 25th, 2006 12:04 am |
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Richard,
The rib separation you mention sounds like the result of a hole in the barrel wall (of which ever barrel you fired) in the part of the barrel that is hidden between the ribs. The pressure escapes the bore through the hole and into the space between the ribs. This space then becomes pressurized and pops the rib loose. I have a damascus GH with just such a hole. We discovered it before it popped a rib because we refinished the barrels and I found fluid leaking into the bore from the space between the ribs during the process. I am in the process of an experimental repair, but I'm not prepared to discuss it just yet. I will say this - I spent this afternoon hididng behind a steel barrel and pulling a string attached to the left trigger, the gun being stoked with "proof" loads. So far, so good...
Jim
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sat Mar 25th, 2006 12:15 am |
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| Will that much Super Glue ever dry?
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