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BELGIAN GUILD GUN
Unread 11-29-2019, 11:40 AM   #1
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J. A. EARLY
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Default BELGIAN GUILD GUN

This gun was my late uncle's (WWII artillery vet) quail gun. It was probably a war relic, but I don't know. He was deadly on quail with it, choked skeet and I.M. I had the fore end replaced where he used it to press down barbed wire crossing fences. The stock was cracked and that got fixed and recheckered and refinished. I did the barrels and trigger guard. It is my prized possession due to the memories of hunting with him. Today was only the second time I used it and got my limit with it, shooting 50%. Had a couple of lost birds that fell way out but ended up with my fifteen anyway. I love the late dove seasons.
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Unread 11-29-2019, 02:33 PM   #2
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Jerry: if you would post full size close up in focus images of every mark on the barrel flats and just forward of the flats, and the action flats, we might be able to tell you more about the gun.
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barrels & receiver
Unread 11-29-2019, 09:34 PM   #3
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Default barrels & receiver

Drew,

Hope you can see these.

Thanks.
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Unread 11-30-2019, 09:23 AM   #4
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Very nice Jerry. It's a Manufacture Liegeoise D Armes Feu.

It carries Smokeless Powder proof and has 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers.
The barrel weighed 1.4309 Kg = 3.15# at the time of proof. If the barrels were later honed, they would still be in proof if the weight loss was less than 3%.
I can't read the numbers, but forward of the flats is the bore over the choke in mm; used c. 1910-1924.
The "Acier Special" barrels were also used by Fabrique Nationale Herstal
It does not have a lettre annale so it was made prior to 1921 and with 70mm chambers I very much suspect after the end of WWI, which would narrow the DOM to 1919-1920.

Cornell Pubs has a 1932 ML catalog reprint which might show the model.

Amazing all that can be learned from the Belgian marks!
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Unread 11-30-2019, 11:30 AM   #5
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Drew,

Thank you so much for the information. It will go on the tag I keep on the gun.

The choke information is:

R: 18.3/18.5 then 17.6/18.4

l: 17.6/18.4


r: 18.5 mm = .728 18.3 mm = .720 so I am seeing .008 which is skeet
L:18.4 mm = .724 17.6 mm = .692 so I am seeing .032 which is I.M./light full

I measured .006 and .030 with my gauge, so obviously the choke in the right barrel was opened.



choke is stamped in front of each marking, except the 18.3/18.5

The 17.6/18.4 on each barrel are in line with each other. The 18.3/18.5 on the right barrel is in front of it.

Acier Special with a crown and ML below the crown to the left and right of each Acier Special on each barrel.

Thanks again.

p.s. For insurance purposes, what would anyone estimate the value of this gun? It will never be sold but will go to my oldest son who when he was a little boy was fortunate enough to spend time with my uncle.
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Unread 11-30-2019, 12:31 PM   #6
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The choke and bore next to each other, followed by "CHOKE" was used until c. 1910 Jerry. The gun is probably therefore pre-WWI and I suspect the gun was re-proved prior to 1921, after the right barrel was slightly honed and choke opened.
Cornell Pubs also has a 1908 ML catalog reprint and the gun should be illustrated
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns...hp?item_id=469
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Unread 11-30-2019, 09:25 PM   #7
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Drew,

Thank you again. I ordered the catalog and hope to find this double in there. I always wondered about its history and you have told me more about it in a day than I or my uncle knew over the last seventy plus years the gun has been used by my family.
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Unread 12-01-2019, 12:12 PM   #8
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Glad to help Jerry.
1897-1903 the Belgian makers even provided the load that should be used; another 12g Manufacture Liegeoise proved with Mullerite (the Lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) "E.C." No. 1 or "Schultze" with 36 grams = 1 1/4 oz. shot



Please let us know if you find the gun in the catalog.
Unfortunately, the market for nice vintage 12g Belgian doubles, even by a well known maker, is not good today, so it is hard to estimate value.
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Unread 12-05-2019, 11:59 PM   #9
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Drew,

By the engraving and checkering pattern I believe this gun to be a Model 5580. There is a higher grade that looks similar, but neither has the same cut out in the back of the frame for the stock.

The catalog lists the chokes as left full and right cylinder, so the gun was opened in the right barrel before it left the factory. Apparently they bored both to full, marked the barrels, then opened it up to cylinder and marked the choke a second time.

Thanks again for your help.

p.s. Can I get someone who speaks French to translate all of it since I only translated the choke borings. Thanks.
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Unread 12-06-2019, 10:35 PM   #10
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Until a French-speaking guy who knows European guns comes along, this is my ballpark effort:

[Hammerless Hunting Gun, Anson & Deeley type, Greenwood Street, Liege, Belgium]

Poids: [weight:] [as per three gauges offered]
eniron: [approximately]



[Proofed with nitro powder]

M.L. [Liege, Belgium- Firearms (brand)] Acier [steel] special: [Special Steel]

5580 – Special Steel gun M. L. full choke left barrel, cylinder right barrel, Greener’s patent treble wedge fast bolting system, English engraving [style?], “trempe jaspee” [stumped here: figured metal grip cap?? -- something aesthetic]

5580 E. – the same gun with automatic ejectors

5600 – as with 5580 –finished simpler, engraved screws, and rosettes, “trempe jaspee” [still stumped here: figured metal grip cap? -- something aesthetic] (Model 5600 is lower cost?, maybe due to no English-style engraving.)
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