Damascus Barrel Wall Scratching

[Theodore LeDurt]

Has anyone out there with a damascus gun fired over 200 rounds of the non-tox shot, ITX. Ballistic products said the material in ITX was soft enough for damascus barrels, but a friend has been experimenting with the hardness of the shot, and he is concerned that ITX is hard enough to scratch the metal in a damascus gun.

This is my first year with reloading this shot, and I liked the less expensive price point of it over other non-tox alternatives. Thanks for your responses.

[Mark Ouellette]

Theodore,

ITX has a Brinell hardness of about 50. Mild steel and iron have Briness hardness of over 100. There should not be a problem shooting ITX in Damascus since hammer welding should have harden the iron and steel of Damascus barrels.

I believe that with the correct thickness and firmness of wad petals ANY shot would not be a problem. Start with a VP-100 or similar wad designed for steel shot. If you are still concerned about shooting ITX add a Milar liner or two around the shot column. Make certain that the shot does not rise above the wad petals.

Mark

[Forrest Grilley]

I think it could be very possible that ITX or any of the non-tox shots that contain tungsten could scratch, or at the very least erode the chamber and choke cones over time. You definitely want to protect the barrel from the shot as much as possible like Mark suggested.

Many of these newer shot manufacturers promote how their shot is softer than the steel barrels they are used in. There is a big difference between crushing a pellet in a hardness tester, and the abrasive qualities of what the shot is made from. None of them bring up this point, but ITX, Nice-shot and some others all contain tungsten, which is much harder than any shotgun barrel. They are alloyed with other metals so the pellet itself can be crushed and be promoted as "soft" but the powdered tungsten in the pellets can wear on constriction points in the bore just like a sandblaster if not well protected by wads.

As of now there are only two shot materials that I know of that can be used "naked" (i.e. no wad protection) in guns without fear of scratching: Lead and Bismuth. We need more.

[Don Kaas]

I have shot a few hundred rounds of 1 1/4oz Federal 3" Magnum Tungsten Polymer shot through my #2 frame 20g 3" damascus DH. It is choked a very tight .029 in both of its slim barrels. I have noticed no ill effects except on the ducks. I have also shot hundreds of rounds of Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix loads through a variety of damascus barreled guns in the pigeon ring without incident. Mr. Grilley "thinks" differently but properly wadded per BP's direction I would have no issue shooting ITX or Niceshot in a damascus gun.

[Forrest Grilley]

I have shot a few hundred rounds of 1 1/4oz Federal 3" Magnum Tungsten Polymer shot through my #2 frame 20g 3" damascus DH. It is choked a very tight .029 in both of its slim barrels. I have noticed no ill effects except on the ducks. I have also shot hundreds of rounds of Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix loads through a variety of damascus barreled guns in the pigeon ring without incident. Mr. Grilley "thinks" differently but properly wadded per BP's direction I would have no issue shooting ITX or Niceshot in a damascus gun.

We seem to have stated the same thing. As long as you use proper wad protection (like we both stated) using any of the tungsten based shot should not be an issue. Not sure why you need to point out that I "think" differently when it seems we have said the exact same thing.

I brought up the point about shooting the shot "naked" since some of us use card wads in our antique guns, with no modern wads to protect the barrel or shot. If someone is willing to put a few hundred rounds of tungsten based shot through their D grade damascus barrels with no wad protection to find out if it will scratch them they have my blessing, I'm not willing to risk mine.

While working as a machinist and mold maker, I use a variety of different abrasives on almost a daily basis, including many that are embedded in a "soft" media such as a polymer. Tungsten combined with anything is going to be abrasive to all types of steel barrels, no matter how soft the finished pellet is. For example tungsten on the Mohs scale of hardness is listed at 7.5. Steel runs between 4-4.5. The Mohs scale is not as specific as other hardness testing scales, but it is good for general comparisons. Lead is listed at 1.5. As long as the barrel is well protected by wadding (like all of us suggested) it's use should not be a problem. The point about proper wadding can not be stressed enough. Follow the manufacturer's loading recipes to the "T".

[Mark Ouellette]

Forrest,

Would the finely ground tungston in Nice Shot or Kent TM (KTM), both having very soft pellets, scratch a damascus or early fluid steel barrel or would it slowly polish it? I've got a couple old Parkers that could use a little barrel polishing! :)

All kidding aside, you make a good point but I wonder how many shots using an unprotected shot column could be shot before any measurable difference in a bore could be measured?

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

If someone were willing to sacrifice a bad Parker Damascus or Twist Steel 10 gauge with tight chokes, I would be willing to sacrifice 100 3 1/2" ten gauge steel shot factory loads in a "damage test". The bores can be seriously pitted as long as the choke area is clean enough to show scratching. Maybe we can put this question to bed.

[Forrest Grilley]

Forrest,

Would the finely ground tungston in Nice Shot or Kent TM (KTM), both having very soft pellets, scratch a damascus or early fluid steel barrel or would it slowly polish it? I've got a couple old Parkers that could use a little barrel polishing! :)

All kidding aside, you make a good point but I wonder how many shots using an unprotected shot column could be shot before any measurable difference in a bore could be measured?

Mark

Good one :) I know you are kidding but intentionally shooting some sort of abrasive through your barrel would be similar to the "fire lapping" process that many rifle shooters are familiar with.

The problem with doing this in a shotgun barrel, is that the erosion is going to be at the constrictions in the bore, such as the mouth of the forcing cone and choke. Both areas are difficult to actually measure, or even closely inspect by eye. I am even more concerned with Parker guns in particular. According to The Parker Story, the shape of the choke is not a simple cone like in modern shotguns. Instead it is a parabolic curve shape, which would be much more susceptible to erosion.

As far as how long would it take shooting unprotected tungsten based shot before you would notice damage to the bore, well that's the $64,000 question. It might be 1, 100's or a 1000. The problem is that it will undoubtedly cause wear in areas first that are not easily noticed.

This would make for a very interesting experiment if someone has an old damascus barreled Parker that they don't mind potentially ruining. One could fire 100's of rounds of unprotected tungsten based shot through it and take chamber and choke castings to determine how quickly dimentional changes are taking place.

But now we are probably getting too far off topic. The bottom line is that if proper wadding is used with any of these shot materials, this discussion should be moot. Happy shooting.

[Steve McCarty]

My question is, what constitutes "proper wadding"?

[Fred Preston]

A soid, strong plastic cup (like Black Cloud) that doesn't release the shot till it clears the muzzle. Black Cloud has a sort of parachute base that opens after it leaves the muzzle letting the shot move on; at least that's the theory. Chokes don't mean much as long as the wad can move through with little or no hinderance.

[Forrest Grilley]

My question is, what constitutes "proper wadding"?

It would be any of the wads that are specifically designed to be used with the new types of shot (steel, tungsten...etc.). Any of the major reloading supply dealers will list a variety of wads they recommend for use with the new non toxic shots. They are generally made of a stronger plastic with thicker petals, to lessen the chances of the shot making contact with the barrel. Other things can be done to help prevent the shot from working between the petals of the wad and making contact with the barrel, such as placing a Mylar or Teflon wrap inside the wad before the shot is loaded.

[Steve McCarty]

A soid, strong plastic cup (like Black Cloud) that doesn't release the shot till it clears the muzzle. Black Cloud has a sort of parachute base that opens after it leaves the muzzle letting the shot move on; at least that's the theory. Chokes don't mean much as long as the wad can move through with little or no hinderance.

Aren't Black Cloud shells high pressure loads? Are you shooting them in a damascus gun?

[Fred Preston]

Yes, they must be high pressure with their advertised velocities. The only Parkers I use steel shot in have sleeved on, fluid steel barrels. One is a 12ga #2 fame VH with skeet chokes; the other is a 10ga #3 frame NH with tight chokes, but here I shoot 12ga shells through 3&1/2" Guage Mate inserts. I have shot 12ga bismuth in my Trojan and my GH with Special Steel barrels. I have not used anything but lead in a damascus or twist barrel. I mentioned Black Cloud wads as I have recovered some and they are heavy plastic with no slits or "petals" in the cup, only in the base to open when leaving the muzzle.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I, Also have shot several hundred rounds of 3-1/2" Bismuth in my Ph 32" Steel barrel gun and the barrels are mirror bores, Now my shoulder was a little worse for wear!

[Steve McCarty]

Yes, they must be high pressure with their advertised velocities. The only Parkers I use steel shot in have sleeved on, fluid steel barrels. One is a 12ga #2 fame VH with skeet chokes; the other is a 10ga #3 frame NH with tight chokes, but here I shoot 12ga shells through 3&1/2" Guage Mate inserts. I have shot 12ga bismuth in my Trojan and my GH with Special Steel barrels. I have not used anything but lead in a damascus or twist barrel. I mentioned Black Cloud wads as I have recovered some and they are heavy plastic with no slits or "petals" in the cup, only in the base to open when leaving the muzzle.

The only fluid steel Parker that I own is my SBT and I only shoot target loads in it. It's a trap gun after all.

I would like to shoot non-toxic in my Sterlingworth. It's a 1929 gun. I think the tubes are stamped "Krupp steel". It's a Full and Modified gun. Was originally Full and Full. Standard grade. I have not shot steel in it. I haven't shot any kind non-toxic in it. I would like to however. I also bought a Spanish double that had a pretty good bulge about eight inches from the muzzle. Obviously shot with the old steel shells which did more to damage barrels than the new ones. The owner, who must have been a duck hunter, dumped the gun after he damaged it. I paid $450 for an engraved Spanish gun with green canvas case with a pimple in the left barrel. Had it removed and reblued. Also had the chokes opened to light full and modified.

Moral of the story? I'm nervous about shooting steel shells in any double. Not sure about tungsten, nice shot. I have not been able to find Bizmuth shells anywhere.

I had an old pre 855,000 Ithaca Model 37 12 threaded for screw in chokes. I shoot steel through it. It's IC choke protrudes about an inch and a half from the muzzle. I would not hesitate to shoot Black Cloud through it, but have yet to do so.

[Steve McCarty]

Can I take it then that no one has a problem shooting Black Cloud shells through an old "liquid" steel gun, such as a Sterlingworth?

[David Holes]

My thoery is lower velocity means lower preassure. These new high velocity shells make me nervious so I look for older production steel shot shells. Dave

[Pete Lester]

I believe all factory ammo whether lead or steel is high pressure close to SAAMI maximum and it is done to insure reliability in gas operated autoloading shotguns.

I am not engineer but I also believe the thick plastic wads used in steel shells is to prevent scoring the barrel. I don't think it fully protects from the potential of choke bulging/rib loosening as the steel pellets are not going to give as much as lead as they shift when entering the constriction.

[Steve McCarty]

I wonder if the non-toxic shot requirement is really doing any good for the duck population. I mean, are they worth the effort? Or is it just another ploy by the left to make things harder and more expensive for hunters and shooters?

[John Dallas]

The ducks, and our old guns would have been better off if the law required that we use lead shot with some sort of premium stamp (about equal to the steel shot vs. lead premium) and that incremental revenue being applied to purchse and maintence of habitat, but, unfortunatley, that ain't going to ever happen. Too rational.

[Steve McCarty]

The ducks, and our old guns would have been better off if the law required that we use lead shot with some sort of premium stamp (about equal to the steel shot vs. lead premium) and that incremental revenue being applied to purchse and maintence of habitat, but, unfortunatley, that ain't going to ever happen. Too rational.

Is there any sanity left anywhere?