English or Belgium Four Strand?

[Theodore LeDurt]

How do you determine if the barrels are Belgium Crolle 4 strand or English 4 strand, and does it matter strength wise if the barrels are in good shape? This is on an English London best grade made between 1875 and 1879.

Thanks for any and all help.

[Drew Hause]

Unless marked by the maker, say Thomas Kilby or E. Heuse-Lemoine, you probably can't. English 'Best' were, however, usually 3 Iron in that period.

Letters to Young Shooters: (First series) On the choice and use of a gun
Ralph William Frankland-Payne- Gallwey 1892
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eh9DAAAAIAAJ
There is, however, some little uncertainty about our English Damascus. Really good English Damascus barrels, when they can be obtained, are superior to Belgian; but those of English make vary considerably in their excellence. They are also produced in much smaller quantities, and are often difficult to obtain just as required. The Belgian Damascus are more regular as to figure, and more free from 'specks' and 'greys,' than are the English, besides being softer, and easier to work. For these reasons many of our gun-makers find it simpler to procure their barrels from Belgium, as there is a very small percentage of inferior quality imported from that country, and as many as wanted can also be easily procured at short notice. As it is the fashion of English sportsmen to imagine that nothing good in the way of guns or barrels can reach us from the Continent, Belgian Damascus, in order to fall in with this popular delusion, is often sold as English. Still, if a gun is fitted with best Damascus, whether of English or foreign make, it is of small consequence to the shooter; but the fact remains, that so-called English Damascus is frequently Belgian, and that the Belgian barrels of this manufacture are, generally speaking, more reliable than those made in England.

Relevant discussion here http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_22ddqshmdq
and http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20258609

[Jack Cronkhite]

Drew: You also enlightened us about Parker and Belgian tubes. http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2053&highlight=testimony

Given so many good guns used Belgian tubes, available in great number on short notice, why did "Belgian" become synonymous with "clunkers" JABC etc. I'm getting the feeling some fine doubles are being ignored because they are Belgian. Thoughts??
Cheers,
Jack

[Drew Hause]

The Shot-gun and Sporting Rifle
John Henry Walsh “Stonehenge” 1859
http://books.google.com/books?id=6ftIAAAAIAAJ

I am indebted to Mr. Thos. Webley, who visited Belgium, with a view to discover the reasons why the barrels forged there are more free from flaws than those made at Birmingham.
"A large quantity of Belgian tubes, called Pointille, similar in figure to our Iron Damascus (often called Laminated) have been used in cheap guns for the last three years, and these are especially wanting in toughness and density of metal. These tubes are cheaper than iron Damascus made at Birmingham, are more regular in figure, and have fewer greys, but the result is obtained at the entire sacrifice of density and toughness of metal; for it is a fact that, though these tubes may stand proof, the iron is so soft and rotten that they will not wear or stand any extra or repeated strain. These remarks apply, but in a smaller degree, to all Belgian tubes, whether Iron Damascus (Pointille), or Damascus (Damas turc). As one proof of this, when you see a choke-bored barrel bulge at the choke, it is almost sure to be a Belgian tube. We were, in common with our competitors, excepting for first and second quality, using a large proportion of these tubes; in fact, we think that quite three-fourths of the tubes used in Birmingham are Belgian make, and nearly all the London trade use them, with this difference, that they use the best quality, which are no doubt harder than the cheaper kinds, but are still softer and less durable than those of English make, and cost as much."

"Pointille" very likely refers to a variant of Laminated steel rather than Twist

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/330752466.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Arms proved in 1889 at Liege, Birmingham, and St. Etienne respectively:
Single barrel Liege- 338,024 Birmingham- 28,146 St. Etienne- 4,352
Double barrel Liege- 233,526 Birmingham- 284,247 St. Etienne- 32,204
Total Liege- 1,124,431 Birmingham- 529,048 St. Etienne- 40,740

“Report On The Arms Industry of Liege-Diplomatic and Consular Report: May 1906”
Liege produced 850 tons of Damascus barrels (100 tons for export), 156,000 double barrel shotguns, and 1.5 million guns were proofed at the Banc d’Epreuves de Liege.

Jack: a couple of those more than a million guns out of Liege were probably not quite 'best' quality :rolleyes:

But the Parker hammerless barrels were :)
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_268gzhjpd4d

[Jack Cronkhite]

Drew: Thanks again for your freely shared information. I guess there are just a few JABC's out there but there must be some hidden gems also. Also interesting that Parker is considered to have destroyed Damascus barrels on hand when they were considered "dangerous" with the advent of the new powders. Sure are a lot of us shooting them today with no adverse outcomes.
Cheers,
Jack

[Theodore LeDurt]

Drew, thank you for all your info. This is from a former Johnson County resident to another.

[Drew Hause]

Happy to help and check this out :) http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20611291

BTW: "Stonehenge's" quotation is from his later book
The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle: Including Game and Wildfowl Guns, Sporting and Match Rifles, and Revolvers
John Henry Walsh (Editor of The Field) 1882
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ