Steel or blued damascus ?

[Milton C Starr]

Can anyone tell me if serial #107505 was made with damascus or steel barrels ?
From what I can tell the serial number places it around 1902 .
Its a 10 ga PH and all the similar ones ive seen to it with steel barrels are from the 1920s .
Just wondering if its a damascus gun that has had the barrels blued or if they are in fact steel .

[Steve Huffman]

Whats the rib say ? Sorry not in the book

[Milton C Starr]

Whats the rib say ? Sorry not in the book

http://puglisiguns.cloudapp.net/inventory/13354
No picture of the top of the ribs , Just one of the 10 gauges ive been looking at . Was wondering if steel barrels were offered in 1902 , all the similar 10 gauges are alot later serial #s and twice the price of this one .

[Steve Huffman]

Give them a call Maybe its been sleeved .

[Dean Romig]

A PH of that vintage should have had Twist barrels.





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[Milton C Starr]

A PH of that vintage should have had Twist barrels.





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Thats what Im thinking at least all the ones ive seen from that time of production . Ill ask tomorrow to see if they know what the barrels are .
Could be a set of barrels from a later ph someone fitted ? Or blued damascus ,
which im okay because that can be fixed overall the gun looks solid and about half the price of other 10 gauge phs ive looked at .If the bores are good is whats important to me .

[Drew Hause]

Parker Special Steel barrels appeared on the Grade 2 GH in 1908, and the Grade 1 PH & NH in 1917. Dave Suponski had a Parker Steel chunk composition analyzed and it was Decarbonized Steel.
The barrel blue appears waaaay too blue to match the action. If you purchase the gun, you could dab a bit of white vinegar on a soft cloth and rub the barrel underneath the FE (where it won't show) and the Twist pattern should be apparent.
Please let us know what you find out Milton.

[Milton C Starr]

Parker Special Steel barrels appeared on the Grade 2 GH in 1908, and the Grade 1 PH & NH in 1917. Dave Suponski had a Parker Steel chunk composition analyzed and it was Decarbonized Steel.
The barrel blue appears waaaay too blue to match the action. If you purchase the gun, you could dab a bit of white vinegar on a soft cloth and rub the barrel underneath the FE (where it won't show) and the Twist pattern should be apparent.
Please let us know what you find out Milton.

Yes I thought the bluing was too striking especially for a gun of that age .
I mean overall the guns looks decent and would probably look be nice if the barrels were properly refinished . Im looking at that one and another parkers they have which are my top two picks . They have a nice 8 gauge but I had a forum member looked up the serial # and it appears someone lopped 4" off the barrels :eek: .

I thought of when I get a PGCA membership just seeing what I could find through the for sale section there . Im probably months away from making a purchase but just trying to get a ideal of whats on the market .

[Brian Dudley]

You could just ask them for additional photos...

But, I will tell you that in my opinion they are aftermarket replacement barrels.

[Dean Romig]

The matting is not original Parker matting... and the markings on the doll’s head are not Parker.





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[Jeff Kuss]

I had the gun shipped to me. The rib inscription looks right, but they forgot the arrows on each end. The barrels are after market.

[Milton C Starr]

You could just ask them for additional photos...

But, I will tell you that in my opinion they are aftermarket replacement barrels.

Aftermarket as in not even steel parker barrels from perhaps a later gun ? I emailed them asking for more details .

Seems like it would require alot of effort to mate a set of barrels from a different brand of sxs or have a set made . Instead of just sleeving the originals . I wonder how that's even done , cut the lugs off the originals and tig them to a different set of barrels then hand fit them ?

So at best we have a Frankenstein gun here .

[Milton C Starr]

I had the gun shipped to me. The rib inscription looks right, but they forgot the arrows on each end. The barrels are after market.

Perhaps it is a good shooter just not much collectors value ?

[Dean Romig]

So at best we have a Frankenstein gun here .

We call them “Frankenparkers”.





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[Milton C Starr]

We call them “Frankenparkers”.





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Now you got me curious if anyone has tried to take a set of barrels off one of those Spanish 10 gauges and mate them to a parkers lol not sure how that would even be possible .

I don't have anything against such guns if it takes a bit of frankenparkering them to keep them from the scrap bin and in the field . The question I have though is why not just sleeve the original barrel set if they are that far gone .

[Dean Romig]

Hey Milton.... why do you capitalize the word Spanish but I haven’t seen you capitalize the word Parker? The Parker Brothers shotguns were named after their inventor and founder, Charles Parker... a real person.





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[Milton C Starr]

Hey Milton.... why do you capitalize the word Spanish but I haven’t seen you capitalize the word Parker? The Parker Brothers shotguns were named after their inventor and founder, Charles Parker... a real person.





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Half the time I am replying with my phone and the autospell keeps changing Parkers to parker.

[Dean Romig]

I know what you mean - I’m posting from my iPhone most of the time.

But I got so fed up with the danged spellcheck feature that I shut it off...... no more problems.





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[Brian Dudley]

A number of companies have made complete barrel sets for Parkers over the years. Belgian, Spanish, English and others. Barrels sets that were custom made to fit guns sent to them for extra or replacement barrels. Mostly in the days of damascus barrels being deadly to even think about shooting.

Most of these barrel sets are of very good overall quality.

[Milton C Starr]

I know what you mean - I’m posting from my iPhone most of the time.

But I got so fed up with the danged spellcheck feature that I shut it off...... no more problems.





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I much prefer using my desktop , but usually use my phone for handling emails and such things which also notifies me of forum replies .

So I guess Jeff K purchased this gun or has handled it at some point ?
Im not sure how often Pugs updates their for sale/sold on their website.

Doesnt look like its easy to find a decent Parker Brothers 10 ga in the 2500$ range . Thats about where I was looking to spend if I opt for a 10 ga or save up more for one of the 8 gauges .

A few people have told me to just find a NID 10 magnum , 8 gauge power but legality of 10 bore hunting .Which is kind of a mute point since I dont hunt waterfowl , well not currently anyhow .

L.C Smiths seem to be cheaper than Parkers but to me the Parker hammer and hammerless guns are just the best looking .

There is a cheap EH 10 gauge up for sale but the seller description sounds like someone shot steel shot through the barrel .

Everythings kind of up in the air right now on trying to decide want I want to get later on . I thought of getting a Parkers 10 ga and perhaps just try to find a Davenport to fill that 8 gauge itch . Im not even sure if Pugs still has the 8 gauges for sale . One of them has been listed on their site for 4yrs now that I always wanted . Looks to have a horizontal crack though through the wrist area . Seems like that could be a problem when shooting a 8 gauge .

[Milton C Starr]

A number of companies have made complete barrel sets for Parkers over the years. Belgian, Spanish, English and others. Barrels sets that were custom made to fit guns sent to them for extra or replacement barrels. Mostly in the days of damascus barrels being deadly to even think about shooting.

Most of these barrel sets are of very good overall quality.

Oh see I was thinking people were cannibalizing barrels from other shotguns and having them mated to a Parkers . Sounds like that would be pretty difficult .

I once got to talk with one of the guys over at Westley Richards and they said It didnt really matter how old of a sxs of theirs was that if it needed to be they would build a new set of barrels for it . Probably not a good financial proposition perhaps putting a 10,000$ set of barrels on a gun you paid less than that for the whole gun. However I thought that was pretty unique a company would do that for a sxs they made 120 or so years ago .

[Mike McKinney]

Milton, Unless I don’t understand, you can’t see the Parker’s for sale since you are a forum member and not a member of the PGCA. By the way, there could be members who want to offer you a nice gun, but don’t want to break the forum rules.

[Drew Hause]

What Brian said. Atlas Arms in Chicago (and others) offered replacement barrels for Smith and Parker guns using tubes made by Vickers (England) and fit and finished by Armaf in Belgium. These barrels have a 1954 proof date code. Courtesy of Jim Akins.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/391381482.jpg

and semi-finished barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/413308799.jpg

A 10g Smith rebarreled to 3 1/2" in 1954

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/414163010.jpg

[Milton C Starr]

What Brian said. Atlas Arms in Chicago (and others) offered replacement barrels for Smith and Parker guns using tubes made by Vickers (England) and fit and finished by Armaf in Belgium. These barrels have a 1954 proof date code. Courtesy of Jim Akins.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/391381482.jpg

and semi-finished barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/413308799.jpg

A 10g Smith rebarreled to 3 1/2" in 1954

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/414163010.jpg

I have never heard of this before , thanks for teaching me something new .
Seems like putting a set of 10 ga 3.5" barrels on a gun that originally had 2 7/8" chambers would be pretty rough on the wood and joints . Interesting nonetheless !

[Dean Romig]

Seems like putting a set of 10 ga 3.5" barrels on a gun that originally had 2 7/8" chambers would be pretty rough on the wood and joints . Interesting nonetheless !


Keep in mind that Parker Brothers would never have built a gun that would compromise the health and safety of a user of their product or the product itself, nor would they produce anything that would compromise their reputation.





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[Milton C Starr]

I see its still up for sale , Any thoughts on the quality of those barrels ?
Im wondering if it would make a good field gun that would provide years of service . I emailed pugs but never heard back from them perhaps they dont answer gmail emails .

[Jeff Kuss]

I would say that it would make a good field gun. It appeared to be very good barrels,just not Parker. Pugs are better if you call them.

[Milton C Starr]

I would say that it would make a good field gun. It appeared to be very good barrels,just not Parker. Pugs are better if you call them.

I talked to the dad who owned Pugs a few years ago and he seemed like he was willing to work out a deal on whichever gun I was looking at . I heard that he has since passed away and his son is now running things . They have a particular Parkers that I remember seeing back in 2011 still up for sale . Thought about seeing if we could work out a deal on it .

[Brian Dudley]

I see its still up for sale , Any thoughts on the quality of those barrels ?
Im wondering if it would make a good field gun that would provide years of service . I emailed pugs but never heard back from them perhaps they dont answer gmail emails .

Buy it and find out.

[Milton C Starr]

Buy it and find out.

Its just theres alot of nice 10 gauge options around that price range , makes it hard to narrow down which one I like the most . My #1 pick is about 2000$ more than I will probably be able to spend but its also possible I could save up the extra however its has quite a few cracks in the wrist area . One runs what looks horizontally through the wrist on the left side and a crack that runs vertically on the right side .

[Bill Murphy]

In addition to Armaf barrels in the 60's, Frank Lefever and Son rebarreled Parkers with original Parker barrels, as well as sleeving Parkers to same, larger or smaller gauges. My DH ten gauge 3 1/2" Parker was sleeved by Lefever from a #3 frame 12 gauge and is an excellent job. The original 12 was ordered and built at ten pounds, a rare heavyweight in its original configuration. The rib inscription was changed to "Lefever Steel" and is indistinguishable from original Parker work. The original Parker barrels used by Lefever were sold off several years ago by Ron Petersen and have been tossed to the winds. They appear for sale occasionally, but are 12 gauge, not 10.

[Bill Murphy]

Jeff, when the gun was in your hands, did the barrels appear to be ARMAF or some other identifiable make? Were the chambers 3 1/2"? Why did you return the gun to Puglisi's?

[Milton C Starr]

In addition to Armaf barrels in the 60's, Frank Lefever and Son rebarreled Parkers with original Parker barrels, as well as sleeving Parkers to same, larger or smaller gauges. My DH ten gauge 3 1/2" Parker was sleeved by Lefever from a #3 frame 12 gauge and is an excellent job. The original 12 was ordered and built at ten pounds, a rare heavyweight in its original configuration. The rib inscription was changed to "Lefever Steel" and is indistinguishable from original Parker work. The original Parker barrels used by Lefever were sold off several years ago by Ron Petersen and have been tossed to the winds. They appear for sale occasionally, but are 12 gauge, not 10.

Pugs has it listed as 3" chambers but that could be a slight oversight .
They have two 10 ga 3 1/2" magnums but they are Parker lifters with damascus barrels .
I have seen a Westley Richards 12 ga I want to say it was one of their A&D sxs from the 1890s , that they rebarreled from 12 ga to 10 gauge but it was built on a 12 ga frame .

[Milton C Starr]

Jeff, when the gun was in your hands, did the barrels appear to be ARMAF or some other identifiable make? Were the chambers 3 1/2"? Why did you return the gun to Puglisi's?

Mr.Bill all the other 10 ga Parker PH guns ive seen have been in the 5k+ range .
So I was thinking at half the price because of the aftermarket barrels it might be a decent buy . Would be really cool to have a 10 ga Parkers with 3.5" chambers . From what ive read the 10 ga 3.5" was original built by Parkers and Ithaca . I havnt ever seen a factory 10 ga 3.5" from Parker . I would think it would have been easier for Parkers to build them than Ithaca as Parker already had frame sizes that could easily handle the 10 ga magnum .