Rose Melling Damascus

[Henry McRoberts]

Looked at a 1894 Remington 12ga. SxS in very good condition today. The seller put much stock in that the Damascus pattern was what he called " Rose Melling pattern ". Has anyone heard of this pattern, and if so is it unusual or rare?

[Drew Hause]

No such thing.
The Remington Damascus salesman's sample rod is shown on p. 275 of Charles Semmer's Remington Double Shotguns.

Named patterns used by Remington
London (Stub Twist)
Twist
Laminated
Boston N. (Horseshoe)
Boston 2 S.J. (2 Iron Crolle)
Oxford 2 & 4 S.J. (2 and 3 Iron Crolle in several different patterns)
Chain J
Etoile 3. B.P.
Legia P. (Herringbone)
Washington N 3. B.P. ( “American Flag Bunting”)
Chine P
Ohonon 6 S.J. (Herringbone or Manufacture Extra)
Pieper P.

More information and examples are here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1DaS94GLQ9b3w9XRU4cBX7M0LUIB_mTDFpvSZxCmUQME/edit

If the seller would like to send a full size close up high resolution image by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net I would be happy to read the pattern, and post the image here.

[Drew Hause]

Would very much like to hear more about Mr. Melling's connection to Remington!!

Samuel Melling, Ince Forge Co., Wigan, a member of the Iron & Steel Institute
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFE-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PR44&lpg

Wigan is a town in Greater Manchester on the River Douglas

Ince Forge Co.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Ince_Forge_Co

Melling’s Iron Twisting Machine
https://books.google.com/books?id=Dnw-AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA59&lpg

Thomas Melling
https://books.google.com/books?id=cHxDAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA356&lpg

James Melling
http://www.boatfamilies.org.uk/getperson.php?personID=I01235&tree=CanalFamily1

[Harold Ward]

Hello Whitefish, Rose Damascus indeed is real. To make the rose pattern, the smith will most of the time take a package of about 60 to 90 layers and drill a pattern of shallow blind holes into the flat side approx. 5mm deep this is done to both sides, then the piece is then forged flat again. the result is a pattern of irregular sized circles with snaking lines interspersed between them. The drilling disrupts the somewhat orderly layers of forged steel and that gives you the multilayered small circular patterns that are known as Rose. There is another interesting variation on this process called the Nail pattern Damascus, in which you drill holes all the way through the piece and then insert shortened nails into it then forge flat, although I prefer the rose Damascus pattern myself.

[Dean Romig]

We would very much like to see an example of this "Rose Melling" or "Rose Damascus" pattern.

[Harold Ward]

Here are a few examples that I dug up.

[Harold Ward]

You may know these examples by a different name but this is what those who are into Damascus steel know it by.

[Dean Romig]

So, is it a more modern innovation or do you have some earlier examples, say from the 1890's and into the next decade of the 1900's?

[Mills Morrison]

Learn something new in this hobby every day

[Harold Ward]

I don't know for sure, but if I were to make a guess I would say that it is not a new innovation as Damascus steel blades have been around since the middle ages and feel certain that this pattern has been produced long before the 1900s, although as with any product, processes are refined. Back then the Damascus blade was considered state of the art weaponry and considered to be the magic sword by those who faced it in battle . the secret of making it was closely guarded and could only be afforded by those who could afford them , mostly noblemen. The mystic was enhanced by swordsmen in battle who's Damascus swords could slice their opponent's blades in half.

[Bruce Day]

How are sheet composite blades of folded layers of iron and steel equivalent to composite tubes of layered, twisted and rolled tubes of iron and steel wound about a mandrel? While there are similarities the process of fabrication is very different.

[Harold Ward]

I assume that you are referencing shotgun barrels made of Damascus vs. modern steel, and agree that modern steel formulas are far superior in both composition and processes used. Damascus nowadays is constructed for it's beauty , not for its functionality in modern steel work .What I was referring to was when it was first created, centuries ago when swords were made of either soft metal which would not hold an edge well , and hard steel which held a great edge but was extremely brittle. The innovation came with the discovery of the Bloomery or Reen furnace. This enabled early smiths to forge the 2 together and create a sword with the best of both, a somewhat soft blade with a hardened edge for sharpness, to put this in perspective , this was the second step up from the bronze age.

[Drew Hause]

Just for clarity, please note the OP asked about a shotgun barrel Damascus pattern.

Rosa Damascena

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/363848040.jpg

3 Iron "Ferlacher Rosen" Damascus

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/379139720.jpg

Parker 'Rose Pattern' Bernard II

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/361027812.jpg

"Rosebud" Damascus blade - an entirely different production process involving primarily (the very short version) FOLDING, hammer welding and grinding the laminate; not hammer welding the lopin then twisting and helically welding

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/345892786.jpg

Interesting reading regarding BLADE history
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p97fInNIiSMjHuMRzJp2pHmQ1QPwPDeJECNbNKzInI4/edit?pli=1

BARREL history
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oPd3fOeToSHZwCaahXNIyV3sGVqow_Z_ENO8Fnk7kTQ/preview?pli=1

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dr. Drew!

And of course, the Rosa Turbina. :bigbye:




.

[David Dwyer]

Harold
That second picture, the pig sticker, is one beautiful piece of work. Yours?
David

[Harold Ward]

Harold
That second picture, the pig sticker, is one beautiful piece of work. Yours?
David
I wish it was mine, but it is not. That is the style of blade that I like the best. I do however, hope to produce one similar in the near future.

[Harold Ward]

Just for clarity, please note the OP asked about a shotgun barrel Damascus pattern.

Rosa Damascena

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/363848040.jpg

3 Iron "Ferlacher Rosen" Damascus

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/379139720.jpg

Parker 'Rose Pattern' Bernard II

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/361027812.jpg

"Rosebud" Damascus blade - an entirely different production process involving primarily (the very short version) FOLDING, hammer welding and grinding the laminate; not hammer welding the lopin then twisting and helically welding

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/345892786.jpg

Interesting reading regarding BLADE history
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p97fInNIiSMjHuMRzJp2pHmQ1QPwPDeJECNbNKzInI4/edit?pli=1

BARREL history
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oPd3fOeToSHZwCaahXNIyV3sGVqow_Z_ENO8Fnk7kTQ/preview?pli=1

Those are gorgeous barrels, the 2nd one looks like the banded technique where they grind across the grain so to speak , the last looks like some of the examples of the nail pattern that I have seen:)

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

These are Bernard barrels what pattern are they? Gary

[Paul Harm]

I make damascus knives and when I drill and then hammer flat a layered blade it's called rain drop, and everyone I know making them calls them the same. Not to say some in other parts of the country call them something else. The other common pattern we're used to seeing on barrels called a 2, 3, 4 iron is called a star pattern when on a knife. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I've never seen a rain drop pattern on a gun barrel. If there is I'd like to see it.

[Drew Hause]

Late to the party. Gary: the various makers of that BARREL pattern called it "Bernard II"; some added "Rose Pattern"

Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes A Feu Damascus Salesman's Samples from the collection of Ken Waite Jr. and Ken Waite III

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19006385/338414106.jpg

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

And back to the OP's question:

Rose Brothers of Hales Owen, 1860-1892 was an important manufacturer of gun barrels. The company held several British patents related to barrel and tube making. One was granted for making twist barrels by machinery, British patent #13299 of 24th Oct 1850. Barrels made by Rose Brothers are often marked; "Roses Patent" or just "Roses."

An advertisement of 1868 –
“ROSE BROTHERS (by her Majesty’s Royal Letters Patent) Hales Owen Mills and Forge, near Birmingham, Manufacturers of Chassepot Rifles and Every Description of Military Gun Barrels, from either steel or iron, Manufacturers of Drilled Cast Steel Moulds, for rolling Chassepot Rifle Barrels, or any other description of Military Barrels. Also, Manufacturers of every description of Sporting Gun Barrels, Either Breech-Loaders, or Muzzle-Loaders, made from Steel or any description of Fancy Twist Iron. Contracts made with Foreign Governments for Chassepot Rifle Barrels, either in the unfinished or finished state, likewise for Cast Steel Drilled Moulds. N.B. Retail Warehouse 25, Newton Street, Birmingham.”"