DID PARKER BLACKEN SOME DAMASCUS/COMPOSITE BARRELS?

[Jerry Harlow]

I posted pictures of this gun under the hammer gun section. In speaking with Dale Edmonds who did them and before he shipped, I was prepared for something I had not imagined. These barrels have four or more different patterns. The right tube two-thirds of the way up changes. The left barrel changes half way up to a different pattern, possibly twice. The right tube does not even come close to the left's pattern. I have seen posts on this subject before.

Dale said he has even seen a damascus Parker which was a presentation gun with a special inscription on the rib that had rust blued barrels when it came to him. Factory?

This hammer gun was a Grade 2, so there are two grades lower than this. It was known as an $80 gun. If someone paid $80 for a set of barrels with a pattern like this, I don't think Parker would have been very successful. I believe what Dale seems to think but has no proof other than what he has seen, and they could have possibly left the factory blackened. Maybe the gun was discounted because of this. Maybe it was ordered with blackened barrels so it did not matter. Maybe when the pattern became clear during finishing them, they just gave up on them and blued them. Dale did a beautiful job, but had I known the pattern was like this, I would have rust blued them myself. The only thing I can say now, is they are unique.

Thoughts? Dale said he would be interested in opinions on this.

[Daryl Corona]

Jerry;
I think your barrels are stunning and would love to own a set like them. Blueing those barrels would have hidden a truly unique pattern which any damascus lover would enjoy owning. Very nice gun. Enjoy.

[Bruce Day]

Jerry, both Dale and I have seen enough Damascus barrels to know that lower grade guns in particular can have mismatched segments. I have seen as many as four different segments in a single tube. The tubes are supposed to be paired with opposite spirals coming together, but I have seen them spiraling the same direction. This has been with G grades. We have seen a couple very much mismatched sets that we believe we are factory blued. I can only speculate about the reasons.

Some English Damascus guns are originally blued, not browned.

I have posted photos of these odd barrels here in the past.

When looking at G grades, Damascus segment matching is a consideration for buyers. A person can find anything from uniform fine Damascus to multiple different segments of large scroll croille.

[Jerry Harlow]

Bruce,

I remember seeing it in some of your posts. But the grade below it, N and NH and P and PH have Twist that is uniform from what I have seen, and the grade above it D or DH, have uniform Damascus.

Is this "composite composite" only used for Grade 2, E and EH and G and GH when Damascus is used? Did they just try to rid themselves of these tubes for this one grade? This was the lowest grade for Damascus from what I understand; was this grade Parker's red-headed step children that less than uniform tubes was acceptable?

[Brian Dudley]

Examples have been found with several oddities in Damascus patterns. I think of some Lefevers that have come up with one tube Damascus and the other twist.

I have seen on some Parkers where the Damascus pattern is stretched for sections of the tube. This is truely curious to me. One might think that it could have something to do with the bulldozing or upsetting process that was used in making the barrels from thick blanks. however, patterns usually appear uniform in most barrel sets.

[Dean Romig]

We have seen a number of grade 2 Parkers with mismatched Damascus barrels.

There has been previous discussion on this topic.

These aren't examples of Parkers but they clearly illustrate that Parker Bros. guns aren't the only guns with mismatched barrel patterns.

.

[Jerry Harlow]

What I am wondering though, is did Parker blacken such barrels at the factory to hide the inconsistent patterns? Over a hundred and twenty years all of the finish could wear off or be removed by the owners, and this may lead us to believe they left the factory with the patterns visible.

Would a buyer in 1883 plop down the additional money for a grade two grades higher than the lowest for a set of barrels that looked like this?

Even in 1883 I would think an aware buyer would see such a set and consider them as seconds (unless covered by the blackening). This gun beside one with matching tubes would be passed over every time is my thinking. This is the basis of my question. Did they cover the patterns in these tubes in order to sell them?

[Bruce Day]

Bruce,

I remember seeing it in some of your posts. But the grade below it, N and NH and P and PH have Twist that is uniform from what I have seen, and the grade above it D or DH, have uniform Damascus.

Is this "composite composite" only used for Grade 2, E and EH and G and GH when Damascus is used? Did they just try to rid themselves of these tubes for this one grade? This was the lowest grade for Damascus from what I understand; was this grade Parker's red-headed step children that less than uniform tubes was acceptable?

That is the minority of G's, but definitely, some mismatching can be found in G's. I don't think that G's were considered lesser quality guns by Parker, in fact they were very popular and sought by gunners, but there are those odd G barrels that are clearly mismatched. I would not phrase the grade as Parker's disfavored. There is a 16ga G Hammer that I posted, which has extremely even and well matched barrel sets. I can't find segment lines. '

I believe but have no irrefutable proof, that Parker did blue some of these mismatched barrel sets, on the basis of looking at very old blued barrels. I think a reasonable assumption is that it was done to hide mismatching, but I know of nothing in the Parker records that touches upon that. And in relation to another of your questions, I have no idea what a buyer in 1883 would think or pay for. All we know is that the G grade guns were wildly popular and did much to create the appeal of Parker. Beyond that, there is only speculation.

I have seen a couple Ds with some but not extreme mismatching, and never a C or higher.

Again, some people find the variety appealing, others (me) like even-ness and barrel spiral matching.

[Dean Romig]

The explanations I have heard and read is that when the barrel tubes were "married" at the foundry in Belgium or England, the tubes were taken from piles probably separated by direction of twist but they were not finished in any way so the pattern was not visible to them. When the barrels were finished by Parker Bros., or whoever the gunmaker might have been, the mismatch was then discovered. If a customer had a complaint a discount was likely given or the gun taken back and replaced with a gun with matching barrels. The gun with mismatched barrels eventually (obviously) was sold to someone...

This is all hearsay - simply what I've read and heard.

I wonder if there are any records of such discounts given on guns with mismatched barrel patterns. Check your letters, those who might own such a gun.

I have never seen or heard of composit barrels 'blackened' by Parker Bros.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Dean, I think your hypotheses could be correct! Gary

[Drew Hause]

Dean is correct. 'Rough forged tubes' were matched at the maker's in Belgium, and it is quite difficult to identify the pattern until finished and colored.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_10/SL2610011.pdf
"The Gun Making Industry How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"
The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity. All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or "tubes" as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

The rough forge tube was made using 2-3 tube segments; thicker at the breech and thinner at the muzzle, so one can understand the difficulty in finding perfect matches.

Lots of examples of mis-matched tubes here SOME of which I believe were salesman's demonstration samples. Most were likely the result of a Monday morning after a long Sunday worship service at the pub :)
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

[Drew Hause]

Bruce posted this D3 refinished by Dale

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/385835791.jpg

1900 GH D3 refinished by Craig Smith courtesy of Mike Stahle with a similar pattern

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/389237144.jpg

Jerry: could you please post or send me a full size image of that 3rd pic, by jpg attachment, so I can crop, enhance and add it to the album?
revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

[Jerry Harlow]

Drew,

I will send it tonight.

[Brad Bachelder]

The only examples of blackening composite barrels that I have witnessed is in Ithica Lefevers.
If you observe original barrels you will notice an overall Patina beyond the simple contrast. This Patina is not just from age, it is an intentional final finish that blends the composite pattern uniformly. The uniform darkening serves to de-emphasise the stark contrast of multiple patterns and non-matching tubes.
In our finishing process we refer to this last step as the "conversion step".
Barrels that are finished to the contrast only state are certianly very interesting but not truely representative of the methods used in original finishing .
Mismatched Ribands and anomilies are very common. Perfectly matched tubes are hand selected and usually reserved for higher graded guns.

Brad

[Brian Dudley]

For quite a long time there has been a DH for sale on. Gun rocker that is advertised as a possible factory error. The gun letters as a Titanic Steel barreled gun and it has the Titanic marking on the rib. But the tubes are Damascus.

[Dean Romig]

I've seen that ad Brian and that one is truly an enigma.

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah. The rib matting is a little worn for polishing and such, but it does not LOOK to be replaced. The barrel flats do not have a "T" on them.
An oddity for sure. And a hard sell.

[Jerry Harlow]

Brad,

Thank you for your answer. That explanation is what I was looking for, how 130 years ago these barrels with five different patterns could have been made presentable to the buyer who would part with his hard earned $80.

[paul stafford jr]

in a talk I had with dale Edmonds last spring , he was refinishing a set of lefever barrels for me and I asked him how they looked, he didn't like the way the tubes were matched but they look better than some of the other barrels he has seen. he is one of the best at his trade. so I wasn't expecting much when I got them back , when I opened the box my jaw hit the ground, they were wonderful, theres pictures in my gallery. I guess he judges
barrels a lot tougher than I do

[Drew Hause]

Jerry graciously shared full size images, which are quite interesting. The breech shows poorly matched 'Oxford' Parker D3, both in the appearance of the scrolls, and the manner in which the iron/steel responded to the coloring

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/408703320.jpg

EXCELLENT demonstration of the juncture of the tube segments toward the muzzle. From left to right:
1/2 scroll with (mostly) straight ribband edge butt weld
2 full scrolls with (down the middle) 'zipper' (wavy) welds
scroll with the straight weld between the two tube sections
2 full different scrolls with (down the middle) 'zipper' welds
1/2 scroll with (mostly) straight ribband edge butt weld

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/408703319.jpg

Thanks Jerry!

[Dean Romig]

Drew, your "'zipper' weld" loses me...
Is your term "zipper" used simply to describe the appearance? Certainly the segments weren't made to 'interlock' as the term might imply - they were simply the outer edges of the D3 or 3-iron ribands welded together.... right?

[Drew Hause]

Steve Culver 'splains it much better than I could here Dean
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

[Fred Preston]

About ten years ago, I requested of Ron Kirby a Letter on a Parker I had recently purchased. Ron called me and told me the customer had requested "a blued, not browned" finish on the barrels and could I tell him what the barrels looked like now. I said they looked like any old D2 barrels I had seen. Pics below.

[Dean Romig]

So, Drew... the "star" is the center of the bundle of alternating iron and steel "leaves"?

[Drew Hause]

The size and shape of the 'star' between scrolls is a function of how tightly the rod is twisted, the angle and depth to which the tube in ground, and likely a bunch of other forging stuff that I don't understand :)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21182597/405342040.jpg

An AHE with 4 Iron Turkish "Star" pattern. Note the alternating black (steel) and white (iron) stars

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/356753700.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Drew. I'll study the drawings and wrap my head around it.... Pun intended. :vconfused:

[Mike Stahle]

Bruce posted this D3 refinished by Dale

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/385835791.jpg

1900 GH D3 refinished by Craig Smith courtesy of Mike Stahle with a similar pattern

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/389237144.jpg

Jerry: could you please post or send me a full size image of that 3rd pic, by jpg attachment, so I can crop, enhance and add it to the album?
revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

Wow! I thought that picture & barrels looked very familiar.
So what pattern are my barrels?
Has this picture been put into a picture file with other barrels I can check out?

[Drew Hause]

It's Parker D3 3 Iron 'Turkish' Mike
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19025099