Question about damascus barrels and turkey loads

[Jawjadawg]

I've been reading around the net about low pressure turkey loads. I've read quite a few stories of people who found that their low pressure loads didn't quite offer the penetration they wanted on longer shots. One recommendation I've read involves using #6 or even #7-1/2 shot for shooting within 20 yards, while having your other barrel loaded with larger pellets for deeper penetration at distances out to 40 yards. The more common suggestions were to load the other barrel with loads of #2 or #4, the idea being that the larger pellets offered better penetration.

I'm not set up to reload 2-1/2" 16ga shells, so a custom load isn't really an option. I'm also having trouble finding a load with shot size larger than #5. RST offers a copper plated shot, but only in #6. They have #5 shot in both 7/8 and 1oz loads. Polywad offers shot size up to #5 lead shot.

So what are my other options? I have wondered about buying a 20ga or 28ga sub gauge tube, but that only benefits me if I can use a modern shell because I'm in the same box with vintage 20ga loads as with the 16ga.

I am wanting to use a 16ga hammer gun with damascus barrels. Is it true that the reduction in pressure created by the space around the chamber gauge makes using a 20ga shell safe? Gun in question is an LC Smith 16ga hammer gun with .30 and .34 constriction.

I've seen the numbers on 16ga to 28ga, but not for dropping from 16ga to 20ga. I'm also a little skeptical about shooting a 28ga shell out to that distance on turkeys, even though lots of people claim a 28ga patterns as well or better than a 20ga. Plus, I've never looked for #4 or #2 28ga loads. I don't know if they're made, given the typical use of that gauge for upland birds and clays.

Am I just as well off going with the #6 copper plated loads from RST, assuming they pattern well?

Thanks for your input and shared experience.

[Jawjadawg]

Well I think I've received one answer, at least in regards to the use of gauge mates. That answer is basically "round peg, square hole." In speaking with the owner of Gauge Mates, he discussed with me that there is no pressure drop because there really is no air gap between the bores and the gauge mate. He also said that the 20ga wad still seals in the bore of the 16ga barrel, meaning no resulting significant decrease in pressure. In short, a modern 20ga load doesn't sound like a good idea in a 16ga damascus barrel, although the owner of Gauge Mates stopped a llittle short of saying that himself. What he said was that a modern load using the gauge mates would be safer than using a modern load without the gauge mates, and he was clearly open to the idea of selling me a set for my purposes.

The barrels might be fine 1000 times, but any failure percentage greater than 0.00000 is unacceptable in this situation. So now I'm looking for an opinion on the RST copper #6 vs an alternative low pressure turkey load for use in my gun out to 40 yards.

[Dean Romig]

Here's one man's opinion... Use the tightest choke available to you and if ypur Damascus 16 fits the bill then use that gun. take no shot at greater than 35 - 40 yards with a full choke and in my experience #6 shot will bust any bone in a turkey's head or neck.

We are centering the bead on the head aren't we??

[Jawjadawg]

True, and I'm probably over thinking it. It's not like a turkey has a head made of steel. This will be my first season hunting turkeys with a vintage gun and low pressure loads, thus the concern with trying to learn a little more about the loads. I started reading about it and read several posts on other forums about people having their turkeys run off - actually, one of them might have been a story in the last Parker pages. People had theorized that the low pressure load was resulting in low penetration at longer distances, but for all I really know the hunter had tried to shoot the turkey while it was in a tuck and had simply missed the head. Or maybe they didn't even shoot at the head. I have a rule to never shoot at a turkey when he is in a tucked position. You can roll the turkey but miss the head. Up they'll jump and run off. I try to shoot when his head is up and neck stretched. If you do that and they still run off then you probably missed him.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with every point you made.

[tom tutwiler]

Think the best thing to do is take a smattering of whatever low pressure shells you have and set up a turkey target at about 30 yards and see how many hits you get in the head and neck area. If you get 12 - 15 your good to go at that range. If you get much more then that you can perhaps extend your range out a bit. I think 35 yards is pushing it for a double with low pressure loads. But those targets don't lie. Figure out what you max distance is and then limit yourself to that distance. If anyone wants to kill a turkey at 40 yards, they probably aren't going to use damascus barreled guns.

[J. A. EARLY]

Will,

Just my opinions, not worth too much.

I wrote the article in the last PP you are referring to. I only shoot turkeys in the head when their head is turned sideways (profile) and neck is up, never in a strut. You mention a turkey's head is not made out of steel... well just hitting them in the head is not what kills them. Stun them yes, as in my story with 1150 fps 6s at 35 yards. I am so accustomed to killing them with 3.5 inch 10s and 12s and hevi-shot, I chose the wrong barrel.

But the head shot is designed to go through the eye socket and into the brain or through the skull into the brain or break a neck.

If you will look at the data, most low pressure loads are about 1200 fps, some less. To have the energy to break a neck bone, penetrate the skull, etc. in my opinion it takes more than lead 6s at over 30 yards going only 1200 fps. Now copper plated 6s or 5s may do it. But a load of number 4s or 2s at the same distance and fps will do the trick.

Most turkey loads designed for modern magnums are pretty slow but contain an awful lot of shot, up to 2.25 ounces in 10 and 12 magnums. You can kill them with almost anything at twenty yards or less, if you can hit their head with a small pattern. The hunting shows and turkey choke tube commercials are fun to watch a ten yard shot, but the gun has a choke and pattern to allow a sure kill at certain distances. If you are going to shoot a turkey at 15 yards, you don't need an extra extra full.

I believe the large bore guns with full chokes are designed for the 30 to 35 yard ranges, with the right shot size, for a certain kill. You'll notice in my story there was no problem with the last turkey at 30 yards with 4s. A broken neck put him down. For me it's 4s right, 2s left. Full and Full or Mod. and Full. If a 6 will kill him, a 4 certainly will.

And I don't care who you are or how long you have been hunting, when a big tom stops at 35 yards in the wide open (and it will always look to you like 25), starts looking around like he has changed his mind, most people are going to pull the trigger.

If I had your 16 with a M & F or F & F I would do 1 oz. copper 6s in right out to 20 yards, 1 oz. 5s in the left out to 25. Remember, the 16 is considered the biggest of the "small bores."

[Mills]

I notice RST makes no. 2 & 4 in Nice Shot for 12 and 10 gauge. These are waterfowl loads, but might be an option if you want such shot in low pressure. I have no. 5 RST shot and am just going to see how that works. I hunted with Damascus barrels last season for the first time, but did not get any shots off, so this is my first season for all practical purposes. SC season opens Friday and with luck I will be out all weekend

[Dean Romig]

The key here gentlemen is pattern density - pattern density - pattern density... shot sizes of #4 and #2 will not deliver the density you need. A lucky pellet or perhaps two might hit their mark at distances of 35 - 40 yards but don't count on it. A turkey's skull is not much more than paper thin and the vertabrae are likewise pretty fragile. No. 6 shot will easily break a pheasant's wing bones at greater than 40 yards so why wouldn't no. 6 shot make a mess of a turkey's head and neck at a maximum of 40 yards? I've killed every turkey I've shot at with such loads and never had to chase one down.

Further DSR sayeth naught (to coin a phrase).

[Jawjadawg]

Was your story the one where you had to run down a turkey? I was laughing in my "library" while you were trying to find another shell in your satchel. It made me think of a time I went grouse hunting and had a better day than expected. When I left the truck with 8 shells and 2 hours of daylight, I figured I would be tickled to death to run out of shells. Well I ran out of shells and was the most pleasantly disgruntled hunter the woods have ever seen.

I'm still all ears if anyone knows of an off the shelf or special order option for larger shot, low pressure loads I can acquire.