Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Parker Forums Parker Engraving & Engravers

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 02-10-2023, 07:35 PM   #11
Member
Craig Larter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Craig Larter's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,510
Thanks: 2,882
Thanked 10,213 Times in 1,622 Posts

Default

Dean How could my examples be Gough they were all shipped between 1916 and 1920?
Craig Larter is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-10-2023, 07:48 PM   #12
Member
mobirdhunter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Garry L Gordon's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,648
Thanks: 13,081
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,042 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Romig View Post
I would think a true artist-engraver would only need to look at and study the “pattern” then engrave it free-style by hand.

Craig once again shows examples of Wm. Gough’s fine work.

.
Dean, I seriously doubt that engravers worked completely freehand. We’ve seen some of their templates in TPS.
__________________
“Every day I wonder how many things I am dead wrong about.”
― Jim Harrison
"'I promise you,' he said, 'on my word of honor, I won't die on the opening of the bird season.'" -- Robert Ruark (from The Old Man and the Boy)
Garry L Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-10-2023, 09:00 PM   #13
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 31,557
Thanks: 35,430
Thanked 33,039 Times in 12,321 Posts

Default

Let’s ask Geoffroy Gournet or Winston Churchill or Ken Hunt or any other of the best master engravers if they ever use a template…?

I would like to look at the templates in TPS that you refer to. What pages should we look on?


.
__________________
"I'm a Setter man.
Not because I think they're better than the other breeds,
but because I'm a romantic - stuck on tradition - and to me, a Setter just "belongs" in the grouse picture."

George King, "That's Ruff", 2010 - a timeless classic.
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dean Romig For Your Post:
Unread 02-10-2023, 09:19 PM   #14
Member
mobirdhunter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Garry L Gordon's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,648
Thanks: 13,081
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,042 Posts

Default

I would like to know more about the process and how they transfer their work to the piece being engraved. I’d imagine there is thorough planning.
__________________
“Every day I wonder how many things I am dead wrong about.”
― Jim Harrison
"'I promise you,' he said, 'on my word of honor, I won't die on the opening of the bird season.'" -- Robert Ruark (from The Old Man and the Boy)
Garry L Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-11-2023, 01:16 AM   #15
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 31,557
Thanks: 35,430
Thanked 33,039 Times in 12,321 Posts

Default

Food for thought and further discussion…


.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 97281E30-CC26-4111-9597-779891D53754.jpg (505.5 KB, 3 views)
__________________
"I'm a Setter man.
Not because I think they're better than the other breeds,
but because I'm a romantic - stuck on tradition - and to me, a Setter just "belongs" in the grouse picture."

George King, "That's Ruff", 2010 - a timeless classic.
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dean Romig For Your Post:
Unread 02-11-2023, 08:57 AM   #16
Member
mobirdhunter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Garry L Gordon's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,648
Thanks: 13,081
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,042 Posts

Default

I think the issue of transferring a design to the metal, and then the execution of the design, might be where I’m not communicating well.

In TPS it is noted that, “Some templates and guides were used to layout some of the perfect circles and ellipses and to guide tools along borders where straight cuts were needed, but the other engraving was done freehand. (My italics.)

Further in this section it notes, “From the earliest times until the last Parker gun was engraved at Ilion, the actual design layout of the engraving pattern on the top grade guns was done by the chief engraving contractor, who also executed some, if not all, of the engraving of animals and birds on C (number 4) and above.” (Again, my italics and boldface.)

The text describing the engraving process goes on to state that plaster casts were made of “all engraving patterns…” The process description goes on, “The pattern in the plaster cast was filled with printer’s ink or ink and beeswax. Transparency paper was then place over the plaster cast to absorb the printers ink. Then the inked paper was pressed onto the polished soft steel surface of the gun to be engraved. By this means, the inked pattern was transferred onto the metal.” (My italics and boldface again.)

As an artist with training in printmaking, I am familiar with and have done various intaglio processes (engraving, drypoint, etching, mezzotint, and aquatint). Knowing something about these processes caused me to investigate and admire gun engraving. There are various processes for transferring designs/templates to the gun parts to be engraved (a web search will reveal many examples). The transfer process described in TPS is a standard process from my investigation, and there are other transfer processes that use wax, acetone and other means — all to facilitate the transfer of a preexisting design to the metal.

There is significant planning that goes into engraving as there is a confined space and little room for error. Having a sound process to transfer drawings and other designs is an important part of that planning, and in no way takes away from the skill and artistic ability of the engraver (I think it only adds to it). This is also not to say that once the design/template is transferred the engraver is not working with a free hand and can and does exercise his/her aesthetic inclinations.

The fact that these guns we love so much have a “production” element to them, unlike a one-of-a-kind engraving project, makes them even more special in their own way.

Dean, I appreciate your bringing up the Parker engraving process and the engravers, and I look forward to learning more from your study — thanks!
__________________
“Every day I wonder how many things I am dead wrong about.”
― Jim Harrison
"'I promise you,' he said, 'on my word of honor, I won't die on the opening of the bird season.'" -- Robert Ruark (from The Old Man and the Boy)
Garry L Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Garry L Gordon For Your Post:
Unread 02-11-2023, 10:22 AM   #17
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 31,557
Thanks: 35,430
Thanked 33,039 Times in 12,321 Posts

Default

Garry, we’ll have to sit down and discuss Parker engraving at length.
I agree with most of those things you point out but some aren’t clear enough IMO.
One point I disagree with is the point that the dogs and animals on grade 4 and higher were engraved by the chief engravers whereas it is the grade 3 and higher that were usually done by the chief engravers. I have several example pictures saved that prove this fact.

The template theory needs clarification too. Is is most likely that some sort of artwork was transferred to the frame panel but after that ink transfer was made the engraving was executed freehand with no mechanical aid. The engraver’s mind, eye, sense of form and finally his hand are most responsible for the artwork applied to cold steel.





.
__________________
"I'm a Setter man.
Not because I think they're better than the other breeds,
but because I'm a romantic - stuck on tradition - and to me, a Setter just "belongs" in the grouse picture."

George King, "That's Ruff", 2010 - a timeless classic.
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dean Romig For Your Post:
Unread 02-11-2023, 10:48 AM   #18
Member
mobirdhunter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Garry L Gordon's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,648
Thanks: 13,081
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,042 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Romig View Post
Garry, we’ll have to sit down and discuss Parker engraving at length.
I agree with most of those things you point out but some aren’t clear enough IMO.
One point I disagree with is the point that the dogs and animals on grade 4 and higher were engraved by the chief engravers whereas it is the grade 3 and higher that were usually done by the chief engravers. I have several example pictures saved that prove this fact.

The template theory needs clarification too. Is is most likely that some sort of artwork was transferred to the frame panel but after that ink transfer was made the engraving was executed freehand with no mechanical aid. The engraver’s mind, eye, sense of form and finally his hand are most responsible for the artwork applied to cold steel.
.
Dean, I have no idea about whether or not chief engravers executed the dogs on Grade 3 guns (I'd guess some guns yes, and some no). Based on my two 1918 guns, one a CH and the other a DH, I would wager they were both done by the same hand...whoever that was. Craig's wonderful examples bear testament to the ability of the engraver also.

As for the engraving done after the drawing was transferred, remember he created the drawing in the first place, and I agree about his artistic ability being responsible for the final work that we see. And I can attest, it's not a matter of just tracing. I've used a burin (nothing like the finer tools of the engraver), and can tell you that it requires much skill...and practice.

I see that you are going to the HOF banquet. Elaine and I are also. Maybe we can chat more about Parker engraving. I believe I could learn much from your years of observation and research.
__________________
“Every day I wonder how many things I am dead wrong about.”
― Jim Harrison
"'I promise you,' he said, 'on my word of honor, I won't die on the opening of the bird season.'" -- Robert Ruark (from The Old Man and the Boy)
Garry L Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Garry L Gordon For Your Post:
Unread 02-11-2023, 01:24 PM   #19
Member
Craig Larter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Craig Larter's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,510
Thanks: 2,882
Thanked 10,213 Times in 1,622 Posts

Default

Jim DeMunck is a very talented engraver I know who lives in Rochester and shoots with our gang a few times per year. Jim has done many of the high grade CSMC Fox guns and many others for Tony. I asked Jim if he used a pattern to cut his scroll and he said no, he lays it out in his head and just starts cutting metal!!! His statement blew me away. These are one off guns and Jim is a master. Jim told me my Philadelphia XE Fox guns were made using a inked pattern. I asked him how he could determine that. He said they had one layout pattern, used it on the first side and then flipped it over for the second side, the engraving will be a perfect mirror image.
Craig Larter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Craig Larter For Your Post:
Unread 02-11-2023, 01:50 PM   #20
Member
mobirdhunter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Garry L Gordon's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,648
Thanks: 13,081
Thanked 9,468 Times in 3,042 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Larter View Post
Jim DeMunck is a very talented engraver I know who lives in Rochester and shoots with our gang a few times per year. Jim has done many of the high grade CSMC Fox guns and many others for Tony. I asked Jim if he used a pattern to cut his scroll and he said no, he lays it out in his head and just starts cutting metal!!! His statement blew me away. These are one off guns and Jim is a master. Jim told me my Philadelphia XE Fox guns were made using a inked pattern. I asked him how he could determine that. He said they had one layout pattern, used it on the first side and then flipped it over for the second side, the engraving will be a perfect mirror image.
Interesting, Craig. I can believe the prep issue for a modern one off gun. Coincidentally, I have a CSMC Fox XE engraved by DeMunck. I had Tony supply me with the names of every person who worked on the gun. Maybe some day when one our member’s great-great granddaughters is writing the book on this era, it will come in handy.

I have a GH Damascus 20 that I can see the ghost image of part of the transferred drawing and where the engraver badly missed a line. It’s quite funny.
__________________
“Every day I wonder how many things I am dead wrong about.”
― Jim Harrison
"'I promise you,' he said, 'on my word of honor, I won't die on the opening of the bird season.'" -- Robert Ruark (from The Old Man and the Boy)
Garry L Gordon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Garry L Gordon For Your Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.