Shot size - basic question

[Harry Gietler]

Originally Posted by Clark McCombe

Thanks Stan,
I’ve wondered why .410 isn’t more popular.

Because they are a ''Wounder'', not a ''Killer'',in most hands except the best
of shots. One Famous Shotgun guy wrote, If you can't handle a 12ga. Take
up ''Ping pong''.

Harry

[Stan Hillis]

They are no more a "wounder" than larger bores that are misused at ranges too long. A .410 at 40 yards is like a 20 ga. at 65. Both will cripple because pattern density is too low at those ranges. I've proven what distances I can kill cleanly with a .410. That doesn't make me an expert, it just shows that I can limit myself with regards to range.

If you've got field proven experience with .410s I'd love to read about it, Harry.

[Stan Hillis]

Just to put some brackets around what kind of experience it takes to successfully use a .410 in the field here is a pic of my now 22 year old grandson, when he was 9 yrs. old, on the first dove shoot on which he was allowed to use a gun. He took all fairly and humanely.

This bore size is criticized severely as being a handicap for a youngster. Young Jackson Hillis disproved that, in spades. "Rare and desirable" Stoeger Uplander, shortened to fit better. Shooting 1/2 oz. loads, AT APPROPRIATE RANGE!

[Clark McCombe]

Thinking about this conversation kept me up last night. I've wrestled with this idea of "sport." Critics will say it's not "sport" to kill animals. It isn't sport - it's a skill. A skill that has to be acquired to do properly and humanely.

The question of guns in general can be opened up too. I believe members of this group are reasonable people that can discuss all these issues. We have 2 A to protect and feed our families, and if you will protect us from the government if necessary. Some of us might be better at it than others.

I grew up on our farm with the tough chore of seeing my animals put in the freezer. I became a vegetarian for a while to try and understand what I was doing. Self examination is the key to understand who we are. I understand what it takes to put food on the table. Not many in our country have any idea of where a hamburger or chicken nugget comes from. If I do shoot a quail or pheasant or rabbit, it will be taken home and dressed and cooked.

I have a problem when I see a deer struggling with an arrow stuck out of its side. That sport bothers me. I know people who do it. I may disagree with them. I pray it doesn't happen often.

In the mean time my initial question was about shooting clay pigeons - I have no problem with that. I'll want to learn to become better. I want to have conversations to understand. Our disagreements help us determine who each off us are.
And our self examination will make us better.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Clark, when using a .410 for clays, there’s not much margin for error. You have to be more spot on with lead and speed. As Stan said in a previous post, long and narrow with not much fringe to the pattern. That’s why I like fixed LM/IM chokes on my .410 Clays guns.

[Bill Murphy]

Bought a new .410 yesterday. Can't wait to sneak it into the gun room to examine it.

[Harry Gietler]

[QUOTE=Clark McCombe;423058]Thinking about this conversation kept me up last night. I've wrestled with this idea of "sport." Critics will say it's not "sport" to kill animals. It isn't sport - it's a skill. A skill that has to be acquired to do properly and humanely.

The question of guns in general can be opened up too. I believe members of this group are reasonable people that can discuss all these issues. We have 2 A to protect and feed our families, and if you will protect us from the government if necessary. Some of us might be better at it than others.

I grew up on our farm with the tough chore of seeing my animals put in the freezer. I became a vegetarian for a while to try and understand what I was doing. Self examination is the key to understand who we are. I understand what it takes to put food on the table. Not many in our country have any idea of where a hamburger or chicken nugget comes from. If I do shoot a quail or pheasant or rabbit, it will be taken home and dressed and cooked.

I have a problem when I see a deer struggling with an arrow stuck out of its side. That sport bothers me. I know people who do it. I may disagree with them. I pray it doesn't happen often.

In the mean time my initial question was about shooting clay pigeons - I have no problem with that. I'll want to learn to become better. I want to have conversations to understand. Our disagreements help us determine who each off us are.
And our self examination will make us better.[/QUOTE

Any gauge shotgun will work on ''Clay Targets'', they are all ready
''DEAD'' when you buy them !

Harry

[mobirdhunter]

Clark, if you do some research regarding the history of what we call "sport hunting," you'll find that idea came about as some hunters began to advocate for fair chase guidelines for hunters at a time when market and "pot" hunting was the norm. The "sport" moniker was because some hunters at the time (like Frank Forester and our own Wilbur Parker, Sr.) wanted hunters of the day to view their hunting like a sport in that it would have rules and a code of ethics. So, no ground swatting birds, shooting into flocks or coveys, taking more than you could use, etc. I'll admit I don't like the continued use of the term because it causes folks today to view sport hunting as trivializing the death of animals, making killing seem like a game...which was the furthest notion from the original intent. So, think of hunting as a sport in the sense that it was intended: an activity guided by rules and with an ethos that respects the animals pursued.

I understand your views on the suffering of animals, and as I age as a hunter, I view the killing aspect of hunting in a light much different from that of my youth. In some ways I think that is part of our growth and maturation as a hunter, and, dare I say, a sportsman. I see so much death and carnage on our highways -- the number of road killed animals in my state is astounding, and I seldom hear anyone cry out against that, or suggest doing much about it. Folks still eat meat, and my guess is that we will for the foreseeable future, but like you, some have looked to alternatives. I certainly respect that. I hope there continues to be room for all of us and that holding differing views helps us evolve our ideas and sense of ethics. We'll see.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts.

Originally Posted by Clark McCombe

Thinking about this conversation kept me up last night. I've wrestled with this idea of "sport." Critics will say it's not "sport" to kill animals. It isn't sport - it's a skill. A skill that has to be acquired to do properly and humanely.

The question of guns in general can be opened up too. I believe members of this group are reasonable people that can discuss all these issues. We have 2 A to protect and feed our families, and if you will protect us from the government if necessary. Some of us might be better at it than others.

I grew up on our farm with the tough chore of seeing my animals put in the freezer. I became a vegetarian for a while to try and understand what I was doing. Self examination is the key to understand who we are. I understand what it takes to put food on the table. Not many in our country have any idea of where a hamburger or chicken nugget comes from. If I do shoot a quail or pheasant or rabbit, it will be taken home and dressed and cooked.

I have a problem when I see a deer struggling with an arrow stuck out of its side. That sport bothers me. I know people who do it. I may disagree with them. I pray it doesn't happen often.

In the mean time my initial question was about shooting clay pigeons - I have no problem with that. I'll want to learn to become better. I want to have conversations to understand. Our disagreements help us determine who each off us are.
And our self examination will make us better.

[Harry Gietler]

Originally Posted by Stan Hillis

They are no more a "wounder" than larger bores that are misused at ranges too long. A .410 at 40 yards is like a 20 ga. at 65. Both will cripple because pattern density is too low at those ranges. I've proven what distances I can kill cleanly with a .410. That doesn't make me an expert, it just shows that I can limit myself with regards to range.

If you've got field proven experience with .410s I'd love to read about it, Harry.

ALL my field proven experience with a 410 is ''BAD". Just 12, 16, & 20ga., any thing smaller that that is useless, unless you are shooting clay targets, you can't wound a target that is dead when you buy it.

Harry

[Mike of the Mountain]

Could be you’re just a lousy shot.