Steel Shot in Parkers

[Bruce Day]

Originally Posted by Robert Rzepiela

.... explicitly not to shoot steel thru full choke. Why would anyone want to risk ?......

The Roster article on p.40 says that improved modified and full or tighter and shot size 4 or larger exacerbates choke problems with any hard shot. So if I read the article correctly, he advises against shooting steel or any hard shot through full chokes.

I think that directly affects Parker shooters now, because I have often seen advise in this forum to use high antimony hard shot in full chokes for maximum pattern effectiveness. Roster also cautions about using buffered shot loads as they can cause gun damage, and i know people here have talked about using buffered loads.

Also, interestingly , p. 38 " steel and other hard, nontoxic shot types are fully contained in plastic wads specifically designed to protect against the shot coming in contact with the barrel throughout its length. "

All very interesting , to me at least, and I like learning about it. I'm not an expert in designing shotguns shells or a consultant to the shotshell industry, like Roster is. I always wish I knew more and could do extensive testing and development like Roster. I read some of the things he is writing about in a private shotshell industry letter a couple years ago, and I am very glad to see this finally in public print. He doesn't specifically address vintage guns in this SS article and I hope he will at some time deal with these issues like he has privately partially mentioned in the past. I think its fair to say that this issue is mixed and provokes strong feelings from some. Roster talks about "rumor and misinformed hearsay" p.38, and maybe investigation can continue. I recommend the article to those who are curious about these details.

[Dean Romig]

I think if we could put a Cheerio in the middle of the shot charge it would be compressed by the shot surrounding it as it passes through the choke thereby eliminating the possibility of ring bulges or other such damage.... whaddaya think???

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

I'm sure Chris will email me the post that was deleted. No big deal when "to the point" posts are deleted if they are objectionable, but I like to know where everyone is coming from. Chris, I'm waiting for the news.

Originally Posted by John Dunkle

If Chris has a post that was "deleted" or "removed" - I'd like to see it as well? I DID edit
Destry's post (which I made public and posted) - and still have an original copy - as, again - I stated previously.

Best to you,

John

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Just to be clear, John miss quoted me with the words "remove posts".... At NO time did I ever say John "removed posts", or "deleted posts" and anyone that thinks I did needs to go back and read the thread again... What I actually did say was "comment" was removed, meaning comment from within a post, NOT posts removed or deleted from a thread... Here is the quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Lien

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This is about the time when Bruce indirectly starts referring to people who don't agree with his opinions as Pigs & Skunks and then he exits.... How that recent Bruce comment and personal insult/attack to several people on another thread was allowed to stand when others were removed is still a mystery to me...

CSL
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Again, No where do I see where I said a "post" was removed or deleted from a thread, but I do see the word "comment" was allowed to stand and others were removed, meaning removed from within an existing post... And Yes, I did copy those "comments" from Destry's post before they were edited/deleted, and I do have a copy of the entire "post" before the majority of it's internal "comments" were "removed"... Hope that clears things up...

Keep up the great work here John, you're the best, and what the PGCA is all about.....

Best, CSL
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[John D.]

Originally Posted by Christopher Lien

.....Keep up the great work here John, you're the best, and what the PGCA is all about.....

As are you. My best to you Chris and my thanks for all you do as well for the PGCA. Sometimes, I think, maybe, there are misunderstandings and/or misinterpretations - maybe, sometimes both or either. But, at the end of the day - we'd both laugh, shrug it off and well just "call it "one of those days"".

My sincerest thanks.

I mean that.

John

[CSL]

Originally Posted by John Dunkle

Sometimes, I think, maybe, there are misunderstandings and/or misinterpretations - maybe, sometimes both or either. But, at the end of the day - we'd both laugh, shrug it off and well just "call it "one of those days"".

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No worries here John, water under the bridge...

Have a nice evening...

Best, Chris
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[Bruce Day]

Ed, I agree the issue is food for thought. And who knows how long we will be able to shoot lead in these old Parkers"? Even now, some public lands you have to use non toxic and non toxic is costly, not that bad for hunting but how about clays shooting? We may find that we have no economical choice but to use steel if we want to shoot Parkers. I'm glad to see that the issue is being discussed by those who approach the matter on a technical basis.

Robert, the Roster article agrees with you about not using full choke.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

Ed, I agree the issue is food for thought. And who knows how long we will be able to shoot lead in these old Parkers"? Even now, some public lands you have to use non toxic and non toxic is costly, not that bad for hunting but how about clays shooting? We may find that we have no economical choice but to use steel if we want to shoot Parkers. I'm glad to see that the issue is being discussed by those who approach the matter on a technical basis.

Robert, the Roster article agrees with you about not using full choke.

What do we think is going to happen to the value of classic doubles if/when lead is banned for target shooting and hunting?

Small bores have pretty much been eliminated from waterfowling by their inablility to handle large steel shoot sizes due primarily to lack of room in the hull for a shot charge with enough enough pellets for adequate density.

Such a ban would reduce my interest in classic doubles that I would keep a couple of guns suitable for waterfowling with bismuth and that would be about it.

Dean, are you making fun of my cheerio reloads? For what it's worth they are working perfectly in 3/4 ounce 12ga reloads and allow me to shoot a very nice light loading with whatever wad I have handy.

[Bill Murphy]

The value of vintage guns unsuitable for regular use (pre Sherman Bell) had gotten pretty high. Of course, the value has become even higher now that we are shooting them. A steel or no tox mandate will not affect the value of a good collector gun. For many years before Damascus became "safe", I was shooting my composite guns with Briley tubes and continue to do so with guns so equipped.

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Pete Lester

Dean, are you making fun of my cheerio reloads? For what it's worth they are working perfectly in 3/4 ounce 12ga reloads and allow me to shoot a very nice light loading with whatever wad I have handy.

Actually Pete, No. I think a core of compressible material might mitigate the possibility of ring bulges, etc.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

Actually Pete, No. I think a core of compressible material might mitigate the possibility of ring bulges, etc.

Dean I beleive the cheerio is reduced to dust in a nano second as the load initially accelerates long before it reaches the choke.

In fact I have tried using multiple cheerios as the sole filler in short 10ga loads with disappointing results. Using 6 cheerios with 1 1/8 ounce loadings seems to produce a large number of functioning squib loads per 25. They break the targets, all wads clear the barrel, but the majority of shells just don't quite sound right. I suspect the cheerios filler is not providing the resistance at the time of ignition that is needed for proper ignition of the load. The star crimps were tight and right with no rattle of shot.

I have come to the conclusion through my own use 1 cheerio in a 12ga wad to shoot 3/4 ounce is fine. 1 cheerio added to fiber filler wad to get shot column where it needs to be in 10ga is fine. Multiple cheerios used in lieu of standard filler wad not so good.