Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Researcher]

Wish I owned this box of 3-inch LEADERS --

Fred Gilbert Winchester Leaders.jpg

to go with my "Pigeon Gun" with 3-inch chambers --

454 C-Grade 09 Right overall.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

that box of shells would be a fine addition to your gun...charlie

[Will Gurton]

Sorry I am late to this party.

I came across an interesting notation in a 1898 Hartley & Graham Catalogue.

Notice the bottom of the right page. It states "Straight Grip (Pigeon) stocks to order, no extra charge".

This would lead me to believe that by the turn of the century Pigeon was synonymous for a Straight Gripped Gun.

Will

[Drew Hause]

Interesting ads for second hand guns in 1906; several "Pigeon" listed along with grips and the dimensions, which appear very "modern"
https://books.google.com/books?id=r0...J&pg=PA888&lpg

[Ed Blake]

It seems the straight grip for competition guns was popular back then, maybe because of double triggers. Although, I have never had any difficulty with straight versus pistol grips on my guns. I guess it was as just preference. The straight gripped guns look more lively and fast to me.

[Drew Hause]

E.D. Fulford, winner of the 1898 GAH at Live Birds with a Remington had a different opinion



"TRAP FACTS FROM FULFORD"
Sporting Life, Utica, N. Y., March 14, 1898
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL3026025.pdf
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke. Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds. The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.

Apparently that is what Hunter Arms thought; from the 1910 catalog and fairly late since the last GAH at Live Birds was 1902
"The straight grip admits of the most rapid work possible and supplies a want long felt by sportsmen."

[Cold Spring]

Thank you Drew, and how about Burrard's conversion of the average 4.70 tons/sq inch on the DuPont's load provided by its Brandylwine Lab? Wouldn't that be about 14,750 psi per Burrard? If so …. isn't that well above the average 12-gauge service max of yesteryear and today?

[Drew Hause]

This is the pressure curve from “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
Dram Eq. is listed in the text as 3 but is more likely 3 3/4 compared to the 1928 data.
Charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.
“All Powders Loaded To Develop The Same Energy” was added to a similar chart in 1931.



Using Burrard’s estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch): (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI; TSI X 2240 = PSI
Ballistite maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi
Schultze at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi
FFFg (likely proof load) at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi
DuPont Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi

Could you please scan and post the chart to which Askins was referring in 1929?

This is the 1933 chart; now expressed as PSI measured by LUP.



The pressure curves are for a 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load.
Pressure by modern piezo transducers would be 10-14% higher.
DuPont Bulk = 9,600 psi
FFFg = 9,000 psi
DuPont Oval = 8,700 psi
DuPont MX = 9,800 psi

[Cold Spring]

Drew, I don't have access to a scanner where I'm at right bow. Here's a cell phone pic of that DuPont's Brandywine Lab data cited by Askins. See the 12-gauge/3-1/2 dram/1-1/4 ounce loads of its Bulk smokeless I referred to earlier.

frank

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Frank and I can't reconcile those numbers with Coxe's pressure curves or the 1927 SuperX flyer; 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
Coxe was the Ballistic Engineer at Brandywine