Carding, and boiling at the end

[Tom Flanigan]

I do use rubber stoppers but moisture can still get in around the rubber so the barrels need to be protected. Rubber stoppers can come out from the pressure that builds up in the barrels. I put a small pipe through the center of them and bend it upward to keep water from coming in. This works great.

Rubber stoppers are mandatory, but I believe coating the bores is also to be safe.

[Bill Graham]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?

Some advise using both. Personally, I've not used a bore coating as of yet, and stoppers seem fine, although when I'm carding under water after etching, they've been known to be knocked out. Since it's just water, not so much of a big deal.

One fellow I talked about this along the way, doesn't use anything for the bores. His etches sounded brief, and he said it cleans out the bores. In his process he scrubs the bores during each cycle, so I suppose nothing potentially harmful is allowed access to the metal for long enough to be an issue.

I appreciate when we work together sorting this out. There's more than enough work to go around, and we're all the better for it when we collaborate. This process has such a high degree of variability due to materials and environment, all of those doing it have their own tweaks, and some are competitive about their secrets. Sharing is better. Thanks to all for contributing to the discussion.

[Tom Flanigan]

I really enjoy these “conversations” Bill. Collaboration is great and will help us to get to the point where we can do any barrel with the same method and get consistent results. That’s the goal. Dale obviously got there and I know we can too.

The higher grade Damascus is the most difficult to do consistently, in my experience, with the exception of Bernard. I have a 20 bore set that I have tried to do three times an never got what I was looking for. I put the barrels away for years. But when I feel that I am where I need to be, I’ll try those barrels again. That will be my test.

I don’t have a lot of time to experiment with the process now since I am still working. But I am planning to retire in June and then I am going to devote a lot of my time to Damascus. I’m moving back to the family home in Pawling, NY and will have my grouse and woodduck hunting minutes away. I am so looking forward to that.

The first gun I am going to work on when I retire is a hammer Parker that was given to me by Austin Hogan. He was a friend and a great man with incredible knowledge. I am going to recut the checkering with mullered borders (I have been checkering since I was fourteen years old) and then refinish the stock and do the twist barrels. I call the gun my Austin gun. I’ll hunt ducks with that gun and think of Austin.

[Tom Flanigan]

I use Laurel Mountain Forge degreaser and browner. I bought a pint of it years ago. I have used Pilkington also, but I don't believe the rusting agent used has much if any effect on the final results. They all work well.

I went to Laurel Mountain Forge because it is more forgiving if you manage to touch the barrels with a bare hand by mistake. They call it a degreaser but I wouldn't depend on that. All barrels need to be carefully degreased regardless of what rusting agent you are using. But Laurel Mountain is a bit more forgiving than the other rusting agents.

[Bill Graham]

Likewise, Laurel Mtn. Forge in use here as well. I've also tried a number of solutions from Rustblue.com They work well, but the price is more of a premium.

Like you, I have a day job as well, so my time to experiment is limited. I do barrels for myself, and for friends, as barter or as favor. My workspace is not very suitable for any of it, which is why I steam vertically for the bluing process, and etch vertically. I have to etch and rinse outside, so that work is limited to daylight hours.

Keep at your tweaks, Sir. I wish you great success.

[Tom Flanigan]

I have a restoration room with sink in my basement in Mt. Airy so things are a bit easier for me. When I move to Pawling I will convert the canning room in the basement to a restoration room and have a sink installed. Having a sink available is a great time saver.

[Campchair]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?





.

I tried them at first, but I do all types of arms in my rust bluing. 90% of my work is on bolt actions. Hard to get rubber stoppers to stay in in the small bore sizes. Plus, I use iron wire to suspend the workpieces in my boil tank. The iron wire is much easier to manipulate during the carding.

On another tack, I built a rust cabinet early on, but I found it unnecessary as humidity averages 80-90% (measured with a sling psychrometer). (BTW, I am in the deep South. Humidity is all the time.) I usually start bluing in the early morning and stay with it continuously till early the next morning with about 4-5 passes. (card-swab-rust 3 hours-boil-repeat) I just found a source for rubber stoppers on line and have ordered a dozen of each, 1 hole and no hole, so I guess that is what I will be using on the Parker barrels. Anyone know of a good online source for glass tubing? Thought that would be best for the vent tube. I've bent a lot of it in chem lab, no problem. EVERYTHING has to be ordered here.
I found that the water is a major factor. I tried tap, rain, distilled, and finally water purified by the reverse osmosis process. The reverse osmosis water guarantees nearly prefect results every time. Pilkington's is my rusting agent.

Also, I use a lot of acetone as a degreaser in my bluing. I also use butyl rubber gloves to do all handling after the process starts.(only gloves the acetone doesn't dissolve!) I "rinse" them off each time I touch anything in process, and try to touch any workpiece as little as possible. My carding is by hand with 0000steel wool, degreased in acetone. The pad is changed every cycle. Many times, I dip it during the carding as well. I DO waer a rubber mask with proper filters. I have a very high success rate, maybe 1 in 50 jobs has to be re-polished for an error. ALL my polishing is by hand. Only thing I use a buffer in my shop for is sharpening my carving chisels. I have a supply of logwood, Ferric Chloride, etc. and Mr. Flanigan's instructions. I have 4 tanks, 2 fiberglass, 1 stainless steel, and 1 black iron.

Guess what I'm asking, am I on the right track for Damascus finishing?

[Tom Flanigan]

You are definitely on the right track for Damascus finishing. I bend small hollow copper tubing for venting but I imagine glass would work as well. I don’t know where you can get bent glass however.

With the exception of etching, the process is basically the same as for rust bluing. However, you will have to do many more iterations to get the proper contrast since the Ferric chloride removes the color from both the steel and iron portions of Damascus, abeit at a slower rate for the iron portions. You have to do many iterations to get high contrast.

I can generally do the rusting in the summer without my damp cabinet. Not so in the winter up north. But I use the damp cabinet in both summer and winter to get more consistent rusting times.

I stopped using rubber gloves to handle the barrels since some can melt a bit on the hot barrels which ruins the finish. I use heavy duty leather gloves but I imagine there are some rubber gloves that won’t cause problems.

Ferric chloride is nasty stuff. When I retire in June, I plan to experiment with a mix that will etch the barrels without the danger or problems of ferric chloride. I don’t know if it will work properly but I have high hopes. I plan to devote a lot of time to trying to improve my process of Damascus finishing.

[Harry Sanders]

Bought my logwood from a trappers supply house. Lifetime supply for 20$. Whiting from brownells. they promite it for de-oiling stocks. Back in the day mixed with Trichlor now I guess it's Isopropyl or Acetone. Whiting and Ferrous Sulfate (copperas I believe is it's Apothecary name) makes final carding much easier

[Tom Flanigan]

This might sound like heresy, but I don’t think the logwood bath at the end has that much of an effect. At least it hasn’t for me. My goal is to get true black on the iron portions without the use of logwood. I imagine any logwood clinging to the iron would wear off quickly anyway. My new method of finishing is encouraging so far. I’m getting closer to using the same method for all barrels without tweaks for harder to do finer Damascus or other barrels that don’t color well.

I’ve used whiting but stopped. Its messy and my thoughts are that acetone baths do a better job. Also, I oil the barrels when finished as opposed to lacquering them. I don’t believe lacquer belongs on barrels. It does make the pattern more vivid at first, but it wears off and has to be re-applied. The only time I would apply lacquer to a gun is if there is a lot of original color and I wanted to hunt with the gun without wearing any more off. I would put it on before the season and take it off afterwards.