Best 20 G hull

[Paul Harm]

I don't buy Rem primers because of the cost - about $200/5000, where as Cheddites and CCI are 117/5000, Win are 130/5000, and Fed are 140/5000. Same for factory wads- about double the cost of ClayBusters. The CBer wads usually have lower pressures if that's what you're going for. With a CB 1100 wad, Win primer, 1oz of shot and American Select powder you get 1200fps at 6900psi. In my 2006 IMR manual they don't show 4756 for any 1 or 1 1/8oz load. With 7625 it doesn't matter what primer or wad - Win, Fed, or Rem, all loads are under 7000psi at 1200fps. I don't see a CCI primer reload in the IMR book. In the Alliant book they show just a couple of loads with CCI's and the pressures are the same as with Win primers. I load mostly 3/4 and some 7/8oz loads so the powders I listed were for them. I see with a 1 or 1 1/8oz load pressures are up a bit, but as long as they're under 8000psi I'm happy. If less recoil is what you're after, reduce the shot. Pressure is not in the recoil formula - velocity squared times the weight of shot, wad, and the powder is in the formula. I think if you do a little research you'll find CCI,Win, Rem, and Cheddite primers all have about the same pressures. I may buy CCI primers next time I order. Some shooters have complained about Cheddites piercing. And the CCIs are made in the USA.

[Tom Flanigan]

I use my old Lyman Handbook that was probably printed in the 90's or earlier. Lots of CCI primer loads in there. Listed in the Lyman manual is the Hogdon Powder Primer Variation test for the 1 1/8 oz. 12 bore load. All the other components are equal which is necessary to really compare pressure since many other factors can come into play. The CCI primer showed 8,400 psi, the Winchester at 10,900 psi and the Federal at 11,000 psi. Pretty high pressure for all. I’d like to know what the load consisted of but, other than the primers, it wasn’t mentioned. There are loads at 7,000 psi or under for all of these primers, but not in the 1 1/8 oz. load.

I’ve heard that pressure does not impact recoil but I remain unconvinced. My 12 bore, low pressure loads kick less than comparable Gun Club or AA loads. They are much more comfortable to shoot. It’s the same with every gauge even the 28. My 28 loads are much softer to shoot that any factory load. If pressure doesn’t have any impact on recoil, I’d like to know why my shells, compared to comparable factory shells, kick so much less. Maybe someone with a relevant degree can inform me. I’d like to know for sure.

I don’t load less than an ounce in the 12 bore. There isn’t any need to. I can get the pressures, recoil and performance I want with the 1 oz. load. My ounce loads are at 1180 fps.

[Paul Harm]

Pressure changes with different primers varies with different powders or loads. Sometimes a Fed is higher in a certain load, and other times it isn't the highest in another load. There are many loads that will get you what you want with different primers. Looking at the sheet that comes with CBer 3/4oz wads with the same wad, velocity, powder is Titewad :
Ched = 7200psi
Fed = 7900psi
Rem = 6700psi
Win = 6700psi
with Clays powder
Ched = 7200psi
Fed = 7100psi
Rem = 6200psi
Win = 7500psi
Not a whole lot of difference and which one is high and low changes. We also know from Sherman Bell that even Damascus barrel guns aren't going to blow up even with 10,000psi factory loads. So why do I and most of us load low pressure loads? To protect the wood stocks ? Well someone answer this - is it pressure in the shell that the chamber contains or the recoil of heavy loads that crack a stock ? I don't know.
Recoil. True recoil is defined by normal physics : mass of bullet [ and wad ] +mass of powder X velocity = mass of gun X velocity of gun.
Perceived or felt recoil is entirely different. Because the shooter is part of the gun mass because he's holding it invokes many variables. Your posture, how hard the gun is held and your weight. Also how fast a powder burns could make a difference in felt recoil. One time I bought some Remington 1oz target loads at Bass Pro Shop. Thirty boxes of them at $2/box - big sale. One box of them kicking the crap out of me and all were sold for $3/box. They were 1oz, but 1350fps. Factory shells could also kick more because of wads or the powder used. I tried Clay Dot one time and sold the rest of a 8# jug. With the same 1oz load and velocity it felt like it kicked a lot more that what I was use to shooting. If you think less pressure equals less kick, it probably will. Shooting is as much of a mind game as it is physical.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Pressure has no effect on free recoil. Powder burning rate may change the perceived recoil. So many people seem to equate chamber pressure with recoil and often cite the need to protect the old wood. I doubt chamber pressure has any effect whatsoever on the stress the wood endures during firing. An increase in free recoil is likely to put additional stress on the wood. If you want to reduce free recoil the easiest remedy is to reduce the shot charge and/or velocity.

[Double Lab]

Bingo Gary.

[William Davis]

As a practical matter only primers I have available are Winchester. Local gun shop stocks them at prices about the same as on line dealers with no haz shipping cost. Remington in 1000 lots over 80 dollars delivered. Winchester half that

On powders I am convinced some powders have more recoil than others. Found some 7/8 oz Federal on sale at Dick’s. Much more felt recoil than my 7/8 oz Red Dot reloads. If the big manufacturers can save a few pennies per box using less volume very fast powder they are going to do it. More expensive 7/8 oz 12 G shells from the Europeans recoil about like my reloads same shot weight. Different components however recoil velocity and pattern I modeled my 7/8 oz after B&P Competition One

William

[Tom Flanigan]

I guess I agree with all of the above. I would still like to see a categorical statement by someone with a relevant degree with respect to pressure and recoil. I'll try to find something. No offense to anyone, but my training is to go to the source for technical information, regardless of the type. All else is hearsay, word of mouth and experiences that may be misleading. I am an IT engineer by training, although my current capacity is director of an IT organization within Verizon. I plan to retire at the end of June.

The Lyman Manual did the primer variance testing to make the point that primers do matter and there should be no deviation from the components listed for each load in the book. Great advice. They took the exact same load and used the different primers to show the difference between them with respect to pressures. My thoughts with respect to the different primer pressures came from this study.

Different powder burn rates probably have an impact on felt recoil. This could be why my loads are so much more comfortable to shoot than the factory loads. My main powders were IMR 4756 and powders with similar characteristics depending on the shot charge I was using. My IMR 4756 is running out so I'll have to get a new manual that has the latest powders in addition to the old that are still available. But I'll still choose the lowest pressure loads.

This has been an interesting conversation.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Everybody's opinion has some merit in a discussion. If you are looking for a definitive answer to the pressure/recoil debate you might try Tom Roster a ballistics engineer with more shotshell experience than anyone I know. I don't know his contact info but it should be available with a google.

As an aside, I am a bit perplexed with your statement regarding the need to get a new manual. As an IT person surely you know that all of the powder manufacturers have web sites with current load data.

[Double Lab]

You have to keep in mind that the commercial loadings of the ammo companies load their ammo to higher pressures so as to operate the many jamomatics out there that are probably cleaned once a year. Couple that with the insane desire of the average American shooter for those 1250-1400fps. loads which they think they need to shorten their leads and reach out to 60yds. to break a target and kill a bird.

One of my best friends and long time shooting buddies was an Executive VP, an engineer by trade, at a local defense contractor and did every test imaginable on our handloads and many commercial loads. One of his projects was developing a flechette round for the military. Pressure and velocity were very important.

Anyway, pressure DOES NOT affect recoil velocity does. A simple way to prove it to yourself is to go to any reloading manual and choose two loads with similar ejecta weight and load one with a velocity under 1200fps and near max pressure, say 10,000psi. Then find a similar load going say 1250+fps with similar pressure. Then, and this is important, have a friend load your gun with the test rounds, different loads in each barrel then hand it to you with the action closed. You will of course have marked the rounds to identify them then all you have to do fire the gun twice and compare the recoil. Pressure stresses the metal and recoil hammers the face of the stock and you.

[Tom Flanigan]

Originally Posted by Gary Laudermilch

Everybody's opinion has some merit in a discussion. If you are looking for a definitive answer to the pressure/recoil debate you might try Tom Roster a ballistics engineer with more shotshell experience than anyone I know. I don't know his contact info but it should be available with a google.

As an aside, I am a bit perplexed with your statement regarding the need to get a new manual. As an IT person surely you know that all of the powder manufacturers have web sites with current load data.

I know that of course. But I like manuals such as Lyman's because information is in there across all manufactures and its easy to compare and find the loads you want. Plus they contain other information which is good to know.