Stock Book Help

[Pa SxS]

Right now, I'm leaning towards that number/fraction being the width across the breach. This should also be the width across the bolsters. Every so often there is extra info to the right of the number/fraction and I can make out the abbreviation for barrels (Bbl).

Brian, in the example of a stock book page in TPS, that's from 1923 and the page I scanned is from 1880 so they may have changed as to what was put in each column. I do agree that what you see is dram equivalent. But notice that 12ga's were at 3dr and 16ga's were 2 1/2. Parker recommended 3dr for 12ga's and 2 3/4 to 3 dr for 16ga's.

In looking at a lot of stock book pages, the most common number/fraction found is 2 3/8 which would be a 2 frame. 2 frames were the most common for 12ga back then and also used sometimes for the 10ga. 2 1/4 would be a 1 frame, 2 3/8 would be a 2 frame (most commonly found in my scan), 2 12 for a 3 frame, and 2 5/8 for a size 4 frame.

S/N's 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6 are the only examples found with these numbers/fractions. I'll have Larry Frey measure across the bolsters on his hammer gun and see if correlates to what is found in the stock book. If anyone has a hammer gun in those S/N ranges, measure the width across the bolsters and let me know.

One other thing, did they make shells back in those days that correlate to those numbers/fractions? Did they make 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 1/4 2 5/8 dram shells???

[Dean Romig]

xxx edited out

[B. Dudley]

WAIT A MIN... !!!!

I noticed something else when looking at the photo I have of the 1913 stock book from Remington.

Later stock books used a column just after the grade to record frame size. The first ones were hand written and the even later ones used rubber stamps for the frame size. The 1913 example does not have a column next to grade for frame size. However... they list frame size in the final column under the "Remarks" column along with the shot size and drams of powder, but above that info in the row.

See in this cropped down photo of that page, that the top row actual says "Frame", and then the other rows following just list the number. In the first many examples they are 0 frame guns in 20g. as shown by the bore size a few columns before.
But... Look about 3/4 of the way down when it gets to three rows for 12 bore guns. It lists 2-3/8 as the frame size???

Frame size 2.jpg

What is up with that method of recording the frame size? In this 1913 example 2-3/8, no doubt means 2 frame. But why the 3/8?

[Autumn Daze]

Very interesting stuff here. So can someone define the frame sizes as they correlate to our commonly used 0,1,1 1/2,2 etc.?

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, Dean and Bill clarified that in earlier posts. Charts on page 45 in the Serialization Book and page 527 in The Parker Story correlates the inches width of bolsters to frame size. The 2 1/2 at the factory was a #3 frame stamped on the gun, and so on. Brian, it makes sense if we realize that the later books use the sizes actually stamped on the gun and the earlier books identify frames in inches and fractions of inches.

[B. Dudley]

Hard to tell from the example I showed since only 20 and only a few 12g guns are listed.

I just checked my photos of the other page from that same book and it is the same deal. All 20g guns with only two 12g labeled the same way. As 2-3/8 frame size.
They were making a lot of 0 frame 20s that week.

In the days of hand written frame sizes in actual frame size columns (around 1928), I was able to confirm in the research for my article on the Hayes Prototype Trojan that sizes written as 1/2 were actually 1-1/2. But this earlier frame size oddity does not make much sense at all.

Chuck,
Are you able to maybe take a tally of what you see by way of those fractional number markings and how they correlate to the bore size. However, we are talking about 1881 as compared to 1913. So no doubt there may have been some differences.

[Dean Romig]

Once again..... look at the chart in the ID & Ser. book on page 45 re: Column F 'width across the bolsters' for frame size 2 is 2 3/" as I spoke of in my earlier post.

[B. Dudley]

Ok. I see now. So now chuck can add frame size to letters.

[Pa SxS]

Brian, here is the problem with adding that info in letters. They are only found in the S/N range of 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6. For some reason, whoever copied that book, starting at 16985 they loaded the stock book biased to the left which gave those numbers. Usually, the right end got chopped off after the total weight. By biasing the book to the left, they excluded the first column which gives the barrel steel and grade, example Dam3. Now if I am doing a research letter and only have the stock book in that S/N range, I can't tell what the grade or barrel steel that particular gun had. Therefore, I can't do a letter on that gun.

Hopefully some day, we'll get those stock books and try and recopy them.

[Double Play]

Below is a letter I recently received from Chuck with a note asking me to measure the chamber length to see if it matched the 2 3/8 he found while doing the letter. It did not, but after reading this thread and Dean's thoughts on frame size I checked the gun and sure enough the gun is a two frame with 1 1/8" between the firing pins and 2 3/8" across the breech face. If I was a betting man my bet is Dean got it right.

Hello Mr. Frey,

Parker shotgun, serial number 18127, was ordered by H.T. Hudson of Portland OR in December of 1881 and shipped on December 7, 1881. The order was placed by Dexter W. Parker. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 10, it was a Quality D, Lifter Action Hammer Gun, 12-gauge. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 30 inches.

The price was $125.00.

According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 6, the stock configuration was a pistol grip and its specifications were: Length of Pull: 14 ¼”, Drop at Heel: 2 5/8”, Weight: 8 pounds. The chokes were patterned RH 140 and LH 140 pellets of size 8 shot in a 24” circle at 45 yards.