No wonder we were afraid of Damascus

[Dean Romig]

First thing I read too Daryl. And as Daryl says, Keep up the great job John!!





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[Kingston Wulff]

There is plenty of evidence that smokeless powders should not be used in Damascus barreled guns. Why, then, do many Parker gun owners use RST smokeless loads in their vintage Parkers when they were intended to be shot only with black powder? It does not matter if the gun was built with Damascus or Vulkan steel. If the gun was designed for BP, I say, shoot BP. The results are actually quite good.

[Dean Romig]

The problem early-on when smokeless first came into use was that folks were loading their shells with smokeless powder to black powder specs or recipes. In those days black powder was measured in drams and to use smokeless powder it must be measured in a 'dram equivalent' which was/is a measurement determined by the combustion and resultant pressures generated by each. If smokeless powder was measured simply in drams you would have pressures far too great for the durability of the guns of the day.





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[Kingston Wulff]

I understand that. The question still remains, why would you load an RST reduced load shell into a vintage shotgun that was proofed for BP with a reduced load RST? The RST is still 3X the chamber pressure as a BP load.

[Kingston Wulff]

response #3 is the one.

[LtCol Henderson Marriott]

These are valuable accounts of actual incidents that have taken place during the transition from black powder to smokeless powder.
One of the inherent potential dangers of reloading
at that time was measuring by volume rather than by weight. Many hunters were not fully aware of the pressure differences between black and nitro smokeless powders. They carried their black powder volume measuring techniques right into the smokeless
20th Century. Possibly adding to the potential confusion-for handloaders- were the various"bulk" powders which were created by powder manufacturers to allow measuring by volume, though they were modern smokeless or semi-smokeless in manufacture as powders for that era. Paul Mathews in
" The Paper Jacket" illustrates this potential confusion, as does the Ideal Handbook which
later became the Lyman Manual on reloading. The Ideal volume actually recommended the Hazard Powder Company of Connecticut during this period. Even today, the shotgun shell reloader must know exactly what he is about as to manuals, powder amount , shot loads and existing pressures.

[Drew Hause]

Why? Because Parker said we could.

Parker Brothers 1893 Catalogue
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”

1902 Sears catalog
"ALL ARE BORED FOR NITRO OR BLACK POWDER"



"RST is still 3X the chamber pressure as a BP load." is incorrect
Please see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...aAfUOZEFU/edit

Factory reported RST 12g pressures in 2016. Of course components could be different now
Ultra Lite 2 1/2” 3/4 oz. 4400 psi
Falcon Lite 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. 5400 psi
Maxi Lite 2 1/2” 1 oz. 5700 psi
Lite 2 1/2” 1 1/16 oz. Roll Crimp Paper 5900 psi
Lite 2 1/2" 1 1/16 oz. Plastic 6100 psi
Premium Grade Pheasant 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 7800 psi


Please see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hIiY62Hx4/edit

[John Davis]

I would not hesitate to shoot those loads in any Damascus barrel gun I own.

[Harry Collins]

Near 40 years ago Ross Seyfried penned an article in Guns and Ammo. He was shooting his Damascus guns with Federal Paper Hulls, IMR 7625, and Lage UniWads. The pressures produced mimicked BP both in pressure and where the pressure peaked at a little over 5,000 PSI. I overcame my trepidation and started loading his recipe for my Damascus Parkers.
In 1993 John Brindle's conclusion that 8,000 PSI was safe in Damascus in articles published in Double Gun Journal.
in 1999 and 2000 Sherman Bell did a series in Double Gun Journal "Finding Out For Myself." He was offered a sacrificial lamb in the form of a GH on a #2 Frame with Damascus barrels made in 1900. The barrels finally let go at their weakest spot, at the breach where the extractor pin goes between both barrels. Standard SAMMI 12 gauge pressures run around 12,000 PSI. Proof loads are about 18,000 PSI. The sacrificial lamb gave ut the ghost at about 31,000 PSI.
Wondering what pressure Fluid Steel would let go, I offered Sherman Bell a VH 12 gauge on a #2 frame made in 1900 with Vulcan Steel barrels. He accepted and as before he kept loading heavier and heavier loads until the barrels opened up just like the Damascus barrels. The pressure? Exactly the same. About 31,000 PSI.
RST Shells are the best! When they are unavailable, I shoot any manufacturers that is lead shot and under 1200 FPS.

[LtCol Henderson Marriott]

Harry has put this discussion in perspective.
The golden rules are : be extra attentive when handloading shotshells for any shotgun;
and each set of barrels and each shotgun may be and will be a law unto itself.