New member has a Ithaca Lewis project - Page 4

alcaviglia · 03-19-2014, 07:15 PM

Yes, those mainsprings look like they'd be off of a hammer gun and/or sidelock. They're pretty similar to a set of springs from an old LC Smith that I used to own. The dimensions look identical. Mostly, it is the squared off end with the sharp grind on the longer leaf that makes me think LC Smith. However, I have never seen the mainsprings from an Ithaca NIG (hammer model). I would think most leaf mainsprings would look nearly identical (LC Smith, NIG, Baker, etc...).

If the sear springs don't produce enough force on the sears using those mainsprings, you'll probably have to replace them.

Try the quick hammer install that I posted above to see if there is anything amiss there. Frankly, I find it strange to have to wedge the bend of the spring between the top of the receiver and the mainspring strain pin.

DMason · 03-19-2014, 10:30 PM

The verification that the springs are not what are in your Lewis is giving me a strong hunch that I have located the main reason why the gun would not cock when I first got it. I think it is clear now that I am in the hunt for two correct Lewis springs. I can remember back to trying to cock the gun when i got it and with enough (too much) downward force on the barrels, I could get some activity out of the hammers and could get a very light 'click' when I touched off one of the triggers. It seems to all be coming together now.

I will do a quick test as you suggested but I don't want to put too much "strain" on the strain pins. They are new one's from Numrich and I would like to preserve them, they may have been the last two in stock!

Thanks for your input into this! Do you have any ideas besides Numrich, whom I will call tomorrow, of how I can send out the word that I am in the market for two Lewis mainsprings? By the way, Numrich gets things quite mixed up sometimes, I have ordered parts and received quite different things than what was ordered in the past, even for this gun. The firing pin holding screws that they sent me were something completely different.

alcaviglia · 03-20-2014, 01:05 AM

I agree with you, Dan...cocking problem solved. Now, to get you a pair of correct springs. I made a few calls earlier in the evening when I first saw your pictures of the mainsprings. So far, no dice.

Midwest (MGW) doesn't carry them and neither does Wolff. You can call MiGa Gun Parts and ask for Misty (if I'm recalling her name correctly). I spoke to her a while back regarding parts for a Mossberg and she was above and beyond helpful. Not sure if they would carry something this old, but worth a shot (912.884.5616).

You may also want to try Hoosier. I've picked up a few old Browning parts from them in the past. They get a lot of old parts, you may get lucky there (email:hoosiergw@gmail.com or phone:270.749.2109).

Through the Ithaca Lovers Forum at shotgunworld.com, you can try Walt or Matt (usernames ithacanut and IthacaMatt, respectively), perhaps they can lend a hand or at least keep their eyes peeled - though a "calling all cars" post in that specific forum would be your best bet.

As for Numrich, they have so many gun parts that mis-cataloguing items is quite common. They are currently sold out of mainsprings (which are listed under the Crass model as Mainspring L and R). You may want to check that listing from time to time in case they get a few. Since you have an account there, you can probably add those parts to your "Wish List" and should receive a notification email if/when they are restocked.

I have tomorrow morning off, so I will make a more extensive search for my notebook containing dimensions, if for no other reason than to make sure you are maximizing thread contact on the firing pin retaining screws.

I'll keep you posted if something pops. Please do the same.

DMason · 03-20-2014, 05:40 PM

Thanks for all the leads. I am pursuing all of them, nothing so far, but I'll keep plugging.

I am wondering if your Lewis is currently assembled. If not, I would like to ask if you could do a tracing of the mainsprings and somehow get those tracings to me. There are many iron workers in the Houston area. I don't know if any of them would do a small job like this or even if any would have the appropriate spring steel to work with, but it might be worth a shot.

I also remember seeing a youtube video of a guy that actually specialized in making v springs from scratch! I have no idea how to locate this video again, I viewed it a long time ago, and I am even just guessing that it was youtube, but it was a video that I viewed on my computer...

I don't know how you could get the tracing to me (if you are able to do them), I am not computer savvy and don't know if you scanned it on a printer and loaded it onto your computer and sent it to me, if it would hold the true size. Maybe you or another computer knowledgeable person reading this thread might know.

I can certainly give you my physical address if all else fails. The post office still exists!

Please let me know about a possible tracing. Thanks so much.

alcaviglia · 03-20-2014, 08:06 PM

Found the notebook!

Firing pin retaining screw dimensions: 6-40, OAL (average between the two)= 0.175" = 4.45mm.

You may be having trouble due to wear. Most 6-40 plug are made to Thread Class 2A (as these are). If you can find a couple of Class 3A they will have larger minimum diameters across the board (by about a thou). That may help snug them up a bit. Just don't force them too much. Another solution would be to shorten the screw half a turn and turn the screw that extra distance so the slot sits a touch below the outside of the reciever. That may help keep it from working loose due to handling.

The Lewis that these photos, dimensions, etc... are from belongs to a neighbor of my parents. I worked on that gun for him a while ago. In response to the thread where you found the procedure for seating the hammers, I asked him to lend me the gun for a couple of days so as to snap photos and dimension things. Long story short, I don't have it in my possession.

I did a quick sketch and listed critical dimensions of the mainsprings, though. I can draft them up from that just fine. I was thinking yesterday of just offering to make them for you, but remembered that I let my buddy borrow my forge. I could only find 1 fire brick in my shop today and would need several more (to make a little oven) to harden springs of that size - a torch flame is just too small to do it evenly/properly. Of course, having the whole forge would be even better. I'll give him a call tomorrow to see what's going on there.

Most guys capable of making those springs will choose the right stock, but in case you want to give it a try: can't really go wrong using 1070 through 1095. But, you'd need something to use as an anvil or mandrel to get the radius correct, that being imperative as it's the crux of your shotgun's issue.

Anyway, I'll draft the springs regardless (I would need that, too) and send them to you. I can send it as a .pdf or even pop it into Microsoft Word, if you'd like.

B. Dudley · 03-21-2014, 06:07 AM

If you need parts for Ithaca Lewis actions, contact me, I likely hav what you need.

Great documentation of this project.

DMason · 03-21-2014, 11:50 AM

great to see your post! I am indeed in need of parts to get my old Lewis functioning again. As you can see in photos on this thread, the mainsprings that were in my gun's action are from another gun. They are, I believe, the main reason that the gun would not cock upon breaking the barrels. 'alcaviglia' has a photo in the album portion of this forum of the parts of a Lewis that he had taken down. With Al's help, I saw the correct type of mainspring and thus confirmed that I need correct Lewis mainsprings.

Please let me know if you have these mainsprings. I am also looking for at least one firing pin retaining screw. I was getting ready to cut one myself but a finished product would be so much better.

Feel free to 'private message' me with transaction details.

Thanks so much. Dan

DMason · 03-21-2014, 03:07 PM

Back to an earlier aspect of my Lewis restoration, I am looking for input into getting a proper polish onto gun metal. Since I am now on hold until new mainsprings can be found and installed, I have some time to get back to the gun's appearance. Al, I hope you are reading this post, I agree with you that since I have taken the barrels and receiver down to the metal and discovered almost no trace of pitting, that maybe rust bluing is not the only option. I also very much like the idea of a polished finished product. I collect Japanese blades and have grown very found of a highly polished piece of metal.

The steel on both the barrels and the receiver have been at 400 grit for a while. If I am not going to rust blue (barrels) and case harden color (receiver), then I am looking for tips on getting gun metal down to as perfect a finish as I can get. I would be looking to go down to at least 2000 grit and possibly finer. However going this route means that the metal will have to be re sanded at a coarser grit to eliminate some existing tiny pits and tiny scratches that look to be as deep as about 180 grit. If I just continue from my current 400 grit stage, these marks will not go away and will only get more pronounced.

The nice thing about rust bluing and or case coloring is that I could have ignored the imperfections and they would have gone unnoticed.

Are there power sanders that gunsmiths use? Maybe a 'Dremmel tool' sanding attachment or something else a little more robust? I am currently sanding by hand with wet emery cloth. Emery cloth is available to even finer grits than 2000. However hand sanding tends to leave irregular swirls, j hooks, in line scratches and other blemishes.

Another challenge in going back down to a coarse grit is that I will risk removing all engraving, then my "optional" plan to "maybe" look for an engraver, will turn into a necessity and thus added cost. Hmm, what to do? Are there any engravers reading this that are available to do a basic engraving job, this gun is only field grade with minimum engraving, at a price that my limited budget allows? The likes of Mr. Turnbull and his sub contractors are out of my league! Where is that trust fund that never showed up in my life?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

DMason · 03-21-2014, 08:06 PM

This thread that I started 4 pages (maybe more now) ago has been embarrassingly selfish. I have been a member on numerous other forums and have felt quite contributory. With my lack of knowledge of double guns, I am finding myself asking nothing but questions and not offering anything back to the PGCA.

I do truly thank all respondents to my posts. I do very much plan on offering something back to this forum when I finally run into a topic that I have useful knowledge of. I will be viewing other threads throughout PGCA and be looking for a spot where my two cents will be of value.

In the mean time, thank you to all of you, especially Al Caviglia, for taking me in and offering great expertise and time spent on my behalf.

Thank you!

alcaviglia · 03-21-2014, 10:00 PM

No worries Dan, it's my pleasure.

I was on a roll a minute ago in response to your previous post and my computer froze as I clicked "post reply", so I'll try and get back into the groove (a bit of 15 yr. old Redbreast should do), rewrite it, and see if I can thoroughly address your polishing questions. It's a long one so here goes:

First, I would suggest hand polishing. Yes, it is time consuming and quite a strain on the eyes, but unless you have a slew of polishing wheels (materials and shapes) and have mastered them all, I would steer clear of buffing wheels, rotary tools, and any type of power sander.

Files make great backing for the abrasive when used on flat surfaces. Just be sure to round off the corners on the file to avoid any accidents. For a radius, I typically use pieces from a gardener's kneeling pad: they are cheap, work great, and are easy to cut into any shape imaginable. A fresh, out-of-the-package kitchen sponge works well, too. They are stiffer like that than they are when wet, but still pliable. Remember that you are removing material so be sure to overlap your passes a little on every radius to reduce the appearance of flats. Additionally, I would leave the water table and barrel flats alone. Maybe a few quick passes at the end, but that's it. If there is bluing on them, especially in the lettering/numbering, use a chemical rust remover and a stiff nylon or soft brass brush.

Take great care around holes and sharp edges. Keep them sharp, especially on the tubes and fences. Any work on the bottom of the receiver should be done with the trigger plate seated. Wouldn't want this thing to look like "franken-gun" when it's completed. And watch the screws/pins, they should be timed forward (North to South, if you will) and never proud.

On to emery cloth, I would think that the imperfections in your polishing thus far could be at least partially attributed to using a cloth-backed abrasive. The emery granules work their way into the cloth (it is far more porous and elastic than most papers) leaving some granules proud to the metal surface. Try a paper-backed abrasive, that may help. Also, I have never been a fan of aluminum oxide abrasives for this kind of work. I typically use paper-backed silicon carbide and a sparing amount of honing oil on my first passes at a new grit. And wear a mask when using it, despite the oil.

Something to note: if you believe that you are looking at pits/scratches on the receiver that sit 180 grit deep, you may have to accept them. Aluminum oxide granules at 180 grit are about 3.5 thousandths of an inch. Without a very expensive piece of ultrasound equipment, you never really know how thick the martensite layer is on the receiver (especially after over 100 years). I've heard of everything from 2 thou up to 8 thou. Removing 3.5, which is a ridiculous amount of work by hand, may not be the best idea regarding corrosion and abrasion resistance down the line.

To engraving, yes, that is the basic Quality 1/1S engraving pattern which I believe was roll stamped on. This would've been done while the receiver was still in it's annealed state, before the hardening. I am not an engraver, but think that they would prefer to recut engraving while the steel is soft. A lot of sharpening on very expensive gravers would be required to make clean cuts otherwise. If you mask the lettering first, and avoid polishing over it until the end, you can preserve much of what is left. If the original engraving being complete and sharp means that much to you, perhaps a legitimate restoration is in order (color case hardening and all).

To barrel prep, I've seen a rifle barrel that was prepared to about 2000 grit. Quite frankly, I didn't see the reasoning behind it. If you are running into polishing imperfections on the barrel set, cross polish with each subsequent grit.

To barrel finish, bluing - that is all. And trigger guard, as well.

As I understand it, you are looking for some type of coin finish to stand in for bluing on the receiver in the absence of case colors (which again, I very much agree with). Bead blasting can be okay, but you'll probably find yourself in a catch-22 with that, and end up redoing everything by hand. Depending on the desired luster, some chemical treatments can also work, but they'll take at least as much time to prepare, apply, neutralize, and remove as you'd have spent hand polishing. Plus, any unforeseen issues that take you away from tending the chemical process can be devastating.

I think that well defines where I come out on hand polishing, and I hope something from this verbose sermon is of some practical use to you.

Also, keep asking questions, it's how you, me, and many others learn. While mankind's greatest resource for information may be the internet, mankind's most valuable resource for knowledge is still people. Luckily, forums like this combine the two quite well, rendering people far more accessible.