Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Drew Hause]

A $75 Baker "Paragon Pigeon Gun" ($100 with AE) was offered in 1897 with 30" steel barrels, straight grip, and engraved pigeons. The Baker Krupp was introduced in 1904 and became the N Grade in 1906.

[Drew Hause]

October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL2604014.pdf
Dr. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell, and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.
(1 1/4 oz. with 3 3/4 Dram “Schultze” was about 14,000 psi. “Schultze” pressures were somewhat lower than “E.C.”)

Another criteria might be a longer than standard chamber

At the 1895 Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament, Capt. John L. Brewer used a Greener. His shells were the U.M.C. Trap, 3 1/4 inches long, 4 Drams of DuPont (Bulk) powder by measure; one trap wad, two pink felts, 1/4 inch 11-gauge wad and one ordinary 12-gauge pink edge wad over the powder and 1 1/4 ounces of No. 7 chilled shot; the shell had a very hard square crimp.

[Drew Hause]

Ask Destry what he was using

[todd allen]

Anyone interested in the early days of vintage pigeon shooting, should track down the book "Pigeon Shooting" by Blue Rock. (Captain Money)

[C grade]

OK, I have a CHE 30" , factory no safety, full beavertail, high stocked PG, choked .048 & .048, factory pad. Ser #220183. I have always felt this is a LBG. What is it? There are no records.
David

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Todd

William Bruce Leffingwell, The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
The king of all pigeon shooters is “Capt. Jack” (John L.) Brewer of Philadelphia.
Mr. Brewer said to the author:
“The secret of pigeon shooting is to kill the birds quickly, they must not be permitted to become hard birds; the quicker the first barrel is fired the better, and the second must follow before the bird is forty yards from the shooter. I can't say that I admire these long kills, because the fact that a man makes a long kill shows that he was slow in the use of the first or second barrel, and that won't do in pigeon shooting.”
“A pigeon gun should be a modified choke — both barrels. The first barrel being bored a little closer than a cylinder, and the second a little more open than a full choke. Bored in that manner, the first barrel will kill the bird within from thirty-five to thirty-seven yards, and the second up to forty yards, and the pigeon ought not be permitted to get beyond that distance when the second barrel is fired. A man must take every legitimate advantage in pigeon shooting. A modified choke gives that advantage, and when a man uses a full choke he handicaps himself.”
“A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.”

Albert William Money, Arthur Corbin Gould, Pigeon Shooting: With instructions for beginners and suggestions for those who participate in the sport of pigeon shooting, 1896
http://books.google.com/books?id=qkEEAAAAYAAJ
In the course of the last twenty-five years, I have met and known intimately most of the best known trap shots. I am one who believes that the longer I live the more I can learn, and that other people's opinions are always worth considering, and perhaps adopting, if, on careful consideration they are found to be based on facts and good judgment.
Stand with the left foot thrown forward, the body upright, and the feet slightly apart; in fact, very much in the attitude of a boxer. The higher the gun is held, the quicker you will get your aim on the bird; therefore, hold it as nearly up to the shoulder as you can, the left hand well extended, but not to its full length, or you will be hampered in shooting a bird coming straight toward you. Take care that there is nothing stiff or rigid about your body, arms, legs or head; grasp the gun very firmly with both hands.
I would lay great stress on the necessity of concentrating your whole thought and attention on the shot. I have for many years past, known all the best pigeon shots, both amateur and professional, who have made their mark on either side of the water, and I have seen the very best of them miss comparatively easy birds, because their thought for the moment was on something else; some one, perhaps, having made a remark as they went to the score and so called off their attention from what they were doing.
Next to this I would advise keeping a cool and equable temperament. Never allow yourself to be upset or put out by anything that may occur. If a miss comes, take it philosophically; we all miss at times. Don't lose your temper and blame your gun, or shells, or anything but your own want of holding straight. Note in what direction the bird was flying when you missed it, and what trap it came out of, so as to discover your weak point as soon as possible, and take measures to correct it. If you keep on missing, and cannot account for it, get someone who is an old shot to stand directly behind you when you shoot, and tell you where you shoot. Strange as it may seem, he can see the direction of your gun at moment of firing better than you can. Do not, however, believe what everyone tells you in that respect. Many men who are not standing in a proper position to see, or are not carefully noting the direction of your gun and the bird at the moment, will say, “You shot over or under, behind or in front of that bird.” They are false prophets, and sometimes are wolves in sheep's clothing.
The question of cast-off in the stock of a gun is a most important one. When a shooter throws his gun quickly to his shoulder, pointing it at some near object, and finds, on closing his left eye and glancing with the right along the rib, that he is looking along the center, he may consider that he has a gun with the right amount of cast-off; that is to say, the heel of the stock has a slight bend away from the body. Few guns are made with a perfectly straight stock. I have, however, advocated them for many years, and I see that gun makers are putting far less cast-off to the stocks now than formerly.
The Winchester, Burgess, and Spencer magazine, or pump guns, as they are generally called, which in the hands of such men as Rolla O. Heikes, Van Dyke, Jack Parker, Capt. B.A. Bartlett and scores of others, are doing such wonderful shooting, are all built without any cast-off whatever.
There is a matter of the very greatest importance that I should like to urge upon all pigeon shooters, old, experienced hands as well as the young beginners; that is, care in handling a loaded gun. At all good clubs there are rules regarding this, which are in the right direction, but they do not go far enough. I advise pigeon shooters to make these rules: First, never to snap your gun shut, but close it gently; secondly, lift the stock up to the barrels, not the barrels to the stock; thirdly, while closing your gun after putting in shells, hold it firmly, so that if one barrel should explode, the gun will not fall out of your hands.
Every shooter should study to get both to perfection, and nothing but practice will do it. As the gun is thrown to the shoulder, instinctively the shooter moves or swings the muzzle, to keep pace with the flight of the object at which he is shooting; but if he does no more, when he pulls the trigger his shot will pass behind the bird. He therefore must make the muzzle, pass ahead of the bird at the moment of firing, and he must take care that in pulling the trigger he does not stop his swing.
As regards the cheek, there is nothing like having a small pad of soft, smooth leather, with some stuffing underneath, let into the gun stock at the spot which touches the face. In many cases I have known this pad to very much improve a man's shooting, even when his face had not been hurt by the recoil, as it takes off the jar caused by recoil of first barrel, and enables a man to use his second quicker and with greater precision.
There are three arguments used by many trap shooters in favor of the smaller charge, which is usually put at 1 1/8 oz. First, that the full charge of 1 1/4 oz. does not travel so rapidly through the air as 1 1/8 oz. of shot, and therefore the shooter has to lead a crossing bird more, and has not such a good chance with a fast direct driver; secondly, that the full charge causes too much recoil, and by throwing the gun off the line of flight of the bird when first barrel is fired, makes it harder to put in as speedy and efficient a second; thirdly, that the outside pellets of the charge with the heavier load have little penetration, travel up slowly, and are practically useless. All of these objections are urged by men who have had much experience and are good judges. There is also a fourth argument, which, however, does not always apply, and that is, that some guns shoot a poor pattern with 1 1/4 oz. of shot, while making a good one with less.
He will most likely shoot better if he watches each bird that his opponent shoots at, so as to keep his eye accustomed to the flight of the birds, as well as the light. If any one of my readers happens to be a cricket player, he will know that leaving the wicket, and especially leaving the ground when he is batting, takes his eye off and makes him far more likely to miss the next good ball he gets; and so it is with pigeon shooting; the eye gets used to instinctively following the flight of the birds, and gauging the direction and velocity of each one. He will also, if he is a good shot himself, see why his antagonist has missed, and avoid, perhaps, committing the same error.

Capt. Money was 2nd in the 1894 GAH and used his Greener in the 1897, 1898 & 1899 GAHs; a Parker in 1900 & 1901. He purchased a CH Parker SN 87238 in 1897 which he returned for his discount purchase price of $75 in Dec. 1898. He also used a L.C. Smith in 1897 and purchased a Smith A2 in 1901. He later had two Parker pigeon guns stolen.
Reward offered for Parker stolen July 20, 1901; SN 90,635, 8#, 30” barrels.
“Captain Money, of the “E.C.” and “Schultze” Powder Company, New York, is mourning the loss of his Parker pigeon gun, which was stolen February 15 (1902) at Paterson, N. J. The gun was taken from the case and shells substituted, giving it the required weight, so he did not discover his loss until some hours later. This is the second Parker gun Captain Money has lost in this manner.”

His A2

[David Lien]

Very good post Dr. Drew. I did read your last post 3 times this morning, will read the post again before the day is over. Thanks again for the post.
David

[charlie cleveland]

this was a good read...would love to have one of those 3 1/4 inch chambered parkers and one of those shells...looks like after all these years those stolen guns would have turned up some where....this articule was unique...charlie

[Drew Hause]

More fun reading gentlemen

“Manly Sport of Pigeon Shooting” The Illustrated American March 24, 1894
http://books.google.com/books?id=tHV...AJ&pg=PA309&dq
A VERY pretty sport is pigeon shooting, and its popularity in this country is increasing every- day. In the neighborhood of New York alone there are close upon a dozen clubs where, during the season, there is at least one shooting a week. Such are the Carteret, the Westminster, the Country, the Hollywood, and Tuxedo clubs. There are persons who look upon it as a cruel pastime. But when one considers that the ultimate end of a pigeon is to have his neck wrung and to be sold in the market, it would appear far less cruel that he should end his days like a flash of lightning, and dying, enjoy the reputation of having done good service for a manly sport. Before it comes to their turn to take their places in the traps, these pigeons have a pleasant time of it. They are specially bred for the purpose and very well cared for in order that they may be strong on the wing.
Like most manly sports, pigeon shooting owes its being to England in the early part of this century. Some persons will go much farther back and trace its origin to hawking, which was a thoroughly cruel sport. Hawking declined in England after the days of the Stuarts, but never actually died out, and may at the present time be actually revived. Frederick, Prince of Wales, tried to make it the fashion, and had a falconry at Durdans, near Epsom, at present the seat of England's new Premier, the Earl of Rosebery. Some noblemen did the same thing during the early part of this century, but met with only fair success. One thing that militates against falconry in England is that the higher branches of the sport, kite hawking and heron hawking, have become impracticable there owing to the extinction of the kite and the impossibility of securing in so thickly populated a country the requisite conditions for the flight of the heron.
It was somewhere in the early twenties that a member of the bucks of London commenced to meet four times a week at Battersea, on the banks of the Thames, for the purpose of pigeon shooting. The first great record we read of was made by a Captain Ross, who, in 1828, killed from five traps at thirty yards, seventy-six birds out of eighty. Of the other birds, three settled on the fence, and one was hard hit, although the shooter's first barrel missed fire. In 1841 he killed, in a match at thirty-five yards rise, fifty-two birds out of fifty-three. In 1850 this club, which was called the Red House Club, was closed, .and trap shooting went out of fashion for some years. Its revival at Hurlingham brought it once more to the fore, and to-day, during the London season, you may see some three or four thousand of the elite of society on the grounds where polo divides the attention with pigeon shooting.
But there is no place in the world where pigeon shooting is done with as much style as at Monte Carlo. The annual international meetings there bring together the crack shots from all countries, who learn that excellence in this class of marksmanship is not the monopoly of any race. One year it is the French who take the lead, another the English or Americans, another the Italians. During the international week a prize of considerable value is shot for each day, but the principal one is the Grand Prix du Casino.
In the first year of the competition, 1872, this was won by Mr. George Lorillard, of New York. For the next six years Englishmen took it, and then, in 1880, Count Esterhazy won it for Austria. Italians have won it six times, Count Cuidicini carrying it off three times. This year it was won by Count Lichy, an Austrian.
Our sportsmen, although generally better in the field than the sportsmen of other countries, are, perhaps, not as good as foreigners at the trap. This is no doubt due to the fact that they are not accustomed to shooting in preserves.
The illustrations accompanying this article were taken at a recent return match, shot off at the Westminster Kennel Club grounds in Long Island, between the crack shots of New York and Philadelphia. In both matches the New York team proved victorious.
New York was represented by Messrs. Fred Hoey, George Work, Edgar G. Murphy, and Capt. A. G. Money. Philadelphia, which was the favorite, had on her team Messrs. Charles Macalester, “D.S. Thomas”, H. Yale Dolan, and K.A. Welsh.
The match proved to be one of the best team matches ever contested in this country. Until the forty-seventh round the result was in doubt, and then the New York team only won by three birds. The Philadelphians, it is only fair to state, were not up to their usual form. At first the New Yorkers, with the exception of Captain Money, an Englishman now residing in this country, appeared to be in excellent condition, but they too did not do their best work, save in the case of Mr. Hoey, who killed forty-seven birds out of fifty, and got a good deal of applause for the workmanlike fashion in which he grassed the last twenty-eight. Mr. Macalester did the best work for Philadelphia, killing forty-six birds out of fifty.
At the twenty-third round the two teams were tied. The betting, which had been pretty dull up to this, now received a fresh impetus. But Murphy lost form after having killed twenty birds. Captain Money did the same, and Philadelphia came to the fore.
At the conclusion of the thirty-third round the Philadelphians led by three. At the thirty-sixth round they were in the lead by six. Then they did some poor shooting, and at the close of the forty-second round the score was a tie. Mr. Welsh now had some terribly poor luck, and this enabled New York to win in spite of Captain Money’s bad shooting. Capt. A.C. Money, New York

[Drew Hause]

Live Bird competition was a one-time demonstration sport; at the 1900 Paris Olympic Games
https://docs.google.com/document/pub...jEdR4j_E9l4HLw

Donald Mackintosh
https://www.sahof.org.au/hall-of-fam...erType=athlete
http://www.shootcanada.ca/mackintosh...ournament.html



Greener ad in Recreation, 1898
https://books.google.com/books?id=sO...=RA1-PA328&lpg
$17,500 in 1898 would be about $437,500 today



Mackintosh used a hammer Greener in the Olympics Games