Another Henry F. Tenney Parker

[BRDHNTR]

Gents, back to the original subject of this thread. I received today an email from the 3rd brother and descendant of Henry F Tenny. Turns out he DOESN'T HAVE ANOTHER PARKER. It's a 12 gauge Fox Sterlingworth. I think he may want to sell it. I've asked him for pictures and more details. If it were a 16 or 20 and assuming condition is god or better, I'd buy it but another 12? Jeez. So Charlie, it's not a 410 and not even a Parker although Fox turned out decent guns for sure.

[Dean Romig]

Gntlemen - Just as a very small example of serial numbers that were omitted when transcribing the data of Parker guns from the original books at Remington I reiterate that some lower grades were definitely passed over in some sequences by some of those doing the transcribing.... look at page 331 of the Parker Gun Identification & Serialization book.

I rest my case.

[Bill Zachow]

Dean, I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill. Just because the serials are not in the PGI & S book does not mean that they do not exist. The PGI & S book was created from Charlie Price's data base which was created from the copied book pages by hired computer input people. Charlie can do a better job than I explaining the process. The reading, typing, entering process was fraught with error--but not because the original books were wrong. Check page 260 of the referenced book. Three 8 gauges are listed in the 4th column, starting with serial 74620. There are actually four 8 in this set, starting with 74619. How do I know? I have 74622 and a copy of the original order from E. T. Allen in California. Parker Bros. pretty much did everything right, including keeping factory records.

[Mark Conrad]

The Parker Story database and the PGCA database are not the same. Both include all the stock book serials but TPS database does not include serials for G grade and lower. So, a grade two or lower where the stock book is missing will not be in the Serialization book even though we have records for it in an order book. If you have a grade 2 or lower always check the database on this website not the Serialization book. Also note that it is possible for our database to show we have records but the only record is for a repair. We can not do a letter on a repair only as there will be no info on the what the gun actually is. Mark

[Bill Murphy]

What Dean does not understand about page 331 is that the stock books for the entire page are missing. We don't have stock book information for any gun from serial number 103084 to 111443, but we have plenty of order book information for letters. The reason that there is information on the high grade, 8 and 28 gauge guns on page 331 is that the authors searched the order books for high grade guns, 28 gauge and 8 gauge guns for the Appendices. Yes, there are low grade guns recorded in those order books, but the authors did not record them. The PGCA records include all those low grade guns in their available data. There are thousands of guns not listed in the Serialization Book that are available for PGCA letters as Mark explains. As Mr. Zachow tried to explain, Parker Brothers recorded all guns, all grades. What PGCA members must remember is that the SB only includes guns from available stock books and a few hundred high grades and 8 and 28 gauge guns. There are thousands of guns available for research by the PGCA researcher that do not appear in the sainted Serialization Book. Another thing to remember is that the order books ended in 1919 and any later gun will not have purchaser information except in rare instances. By the way, just about everything Mr. McCormack said was right and virtually everything Mr. Fishtail said was wrong. No one who knows anything about the Parker records has ever said that low grade guns were not posted in the records. Mr. Fishtail is mistaken about what he thinks he has read on the forum.

[Dean Romig]

Many, many thanks to Bill Zachow, Mark Conrad (former PGCA Research Chairman) and Bill Murphy for setting the record straight on the Parker records as they are presented in both The Parker Story and the Parker Gun Identification & Serialization book.

Every day holds a new learning experience for me and I am sure for a great many visitors to this forum, both PGCA Members and non-members alike. Someday I hope we can get all of this information down in one volume of extraneous Parker Collector Information that doesn't pertain strictly to the guns but also to the history of the PGCA, its formation, how information was obtained, how it was used, how it was recorded - anything and everything we can learn from those who have been involved since the beginning of the PGCA and even before. Time will run out on our ability to do this if we don't start very soon.

[Bill Murphy]

One comment made earlier was that Dean understood that the researchers at Ilion in 1998 did not copy the records of the low grade guns. This is absolutely wrong. The Research Committee members copied every page of every Parker order book in the Remington Archives. They copied every Parker IBM card in the Remington Archives. Commander Gunther copied every page of every stock book in the Remington Archives and presented the copies to PGCA. Every page of every order book, stock book, and every IBM card is in the PGCA research files, thanks to that research committee. Three members of the 1998 PGCA Research Committee have posted correct information on this thread. Those posters are Mr. McCormack, Mr. Conrad, and Mr. Murphy. If you want confirmation that all guns, high grade and low, were posted in the Parker records and copied by PGCA, ask one of those three people. By the way, a great article explaining the work of the PGCA Research Committee was written by Ron Kirby and published in the Parker Pages. I hope someone can give us a reference to that article, or maybe Dean can reprint it in a future Parker Pages.

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

One comment made earlier was that Dean understood that the researchers at Ilion in 1998 did not copy the records of the low grade guns. This is absolutely wrong.

I am the first to admit that either I was misinformed or I misunderstoot the information I had on that subject - again, I apologize for perpetuating the misinformation. D.R.

The Research Committee members copied every page of every Parker order book in the Remington Archives. They copied every Parker IBM card in the Remington Archives. Commander Gunther copied every page of every stock book in the Remington Archives and presented the copies to PGCA. Every page of every order book, stock book, and every IBM card is in the PGCA research files, thanks to that research committee. Three members of the 1998 PGCA Research Committee have posted correct information on this thread. Those posters are Mr. McCormack, Mr. Conrad, and Mr. Murphy. If you want confirmation that all guns, high grade and low, were posted in the Parker records and copied by PGCA, ask one of those three people. By the way, a great article explaining the work of the PGCA Research Committee was written by Ron Kirby and published in the Parker Pages. I hope someone can give us a reference to that article, or maybe Dean can reprint it in a future Parker Pages.

I will be more than happy to do so. Where 2013 marks the twentieth anniversary of the founding of the PGCA I am quite sure a reprint of Ron Kirby's informative article will be appreciated. Thanks Bill for the suggestion. D.R.

[Mark Conrad]

There were two articles written up about the PGCA's Research Team's trip to Illion in the Sept/Oct 1998 Parker Parkers. Kevin McCormack wrote a lengthly article about the entire trip and Ron Kirby did a piece uner the Secretarys Notes. 30,000 pages were copied in 4 1/2 days by the team. The team consisted of Ron Kirby, Bill Murphy, Jim Hall, Allan Swanson, Frank Sweeney, Paul Burns, Dr. Dave Rosier and Mark Conrad. I had only been in the PGCA for two years. We worked very hard but more importantly we had fun. Friendships were developed that have lasted all these years.

Remington treated the team to a very nice dinner and offered us the employee price for any of their products. We spent a little time looking through the museum and items related to Parker Bros. I loved the Trojan Skeet gun prototype with its single trigger(miller) and ejectors (Win Model 21). I think it was a 12 bore. That gun in a 28 or a 410 would be nice.

It was a wonderful week in which all of us knew we had done something very special. I still cherish the week and would do it again in a heart beat.

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

I have collected and studied Parkers since 1960, the year before Peter Johnson wrote his book. Mark reminded me that the week in 1998 at Ilion was the absolute highlight of my collecting and researching career. Thanks to Mark and Ron for a wonderfully planned project. Thanks also to Remington executive Dennis Sanita, who was our hands on host for the entire week. Dean, you would be doing us a great service to reprint those two great articles. Thank you.