Who is the Winchester engraver?? Help

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, I have probably been collecting and shooting Winchester pump guns as long as I have the Parkers. One piece of information that may interest you is that the short chambered 20 gauges generally digest and feed 2 3/4" ammunition quite well. The short chambered 16s are a little fussy and generally require short shells to function reliably.

[charlie cleveland]

bill thanks for the info...ive looked at a couple 20 ga model 12 s lately this info will help me out.... charlie

[Old and Reliable]

Hey Charlie- I

Originally Posted by charlie cleveland

bill thanks for the info...ive looked at a couple 20 ga model 12 s lately this info will help me out.... charlie

I have about 200 AA 12 and Rem RST empties for you- I wanted another 20 with the earlier "perch belly- stock, and the price on the 1916 Model 1912 was very right- the 1931 M12 20 (marked 2 & 3/4" on mag extension area) that my late father bought new then, and gave to me on my 11th birthday (1952) also has that style- post 1934-35 went to the later style grip and fluted tang area. I like the smaller in dia semi-pistol grip of the earlier (1912-1934) Model 1912's and Model 12's--

Never owned a 16 gauge M12- did have a 16 gauge M1897 made in about 1948- 28" mod- fine pheasant gun, today- where I live and hunt/shoot- 16's are as scarce as honest politicans in D.C.--so I stay mainly with the 12's--

How durable is a Model 12 pumpgun- out this morning with a friend in farmer's corn for ducks and geese- dawn came like a piece of writing from Nash Buckingham-- a few mallards and woodies started moving- we didn't bother with dekes- just hid in the strip of standing corn-- dropped a few ducks first- geese are later risers, and there was scant frost on the fields this AM-- my pal is an avid reloader for steel- he had some heavy steel No. 2 in 3" cases he had reloaded-- so when we heard the geese moving, we switched to his heavier loads- I had my M12 Duck- 30" full (removed some of the lead from the butt cavity and use a slip-over butt pad until the late Winter season opens-- he has a multi-buck Browning Gold autoloader that will handle 2 & 3/4" and or 3" interchangeably -- His shells were a bit swollen, but they worked fine in my M12- two dead honkers on the deck (daily limit here)--3 shells- 20 yard incoming over the corn tops- my favorite goose hunting scenario-- we had to remove the barrel to free the jammed fired hull stuck in his Browning (always carry a Leatherman tool afield)--I gave him some of my heavy 2 &3/4" Black cloud loads, and they worked fine in his autoloader-and he also took two geese-- point is- any good pump (or great pumpgun, as is the M12) will function with just about any kind of shell- they came out in the paper shell era-and they point like Darth Vader with his lazer-sword- death and doom- for certain (if you do your part)

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by Jared Valeski

The letter from Pauline is in the works.

I'd like to get in touch with her--thanks

[Old and Reliable]

[quote=John Dallas;53393]Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?[/quote-- I have two separate bets on the World Series- (1) it will go the full 7 games (Winner) (2) The Cards will win it (not done yet)- plus I had a red letter AM hunt- Op Rod- sounds like a M-1 Garand or a M-14- takes me back to the USMC Armory-- Not familiar with many Jap military weapons- The Ariska BA rifles and the Nambu pistols- so if they had a autoloader that used a op. rod to link the gas piston to the bolt and roller group, I am not aware of that fact.

John- I need you to please understand- I am very "Old School" on the - you make your $ in America, you buy 100% American (with the possible exception of Irish Whiskey and beers, also German Beers)--and my favorite bumper sticker that I have seen so far (at age 70 and closing) reads like this- 'Shop At Wally_Mart- where all of America buys its cheap Chink-made Crap"--

That beautiful Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade 12 bore is a very original and rare shotgun, at least- IMO. But I do thank you for the "memory jog" re: op rod-- In the detailed article I recently wrote about the Model 12 (that will not appear in a future issue of PP, and rightly not so) I forgot to mention the ill-fated "Dog-Leg" style op rod that causes WRA beaucoup problems from 1951- to 1954. WRA recalled all the M12's they could that had this "beancounter designed part"- they were such that the recoil that dis-engages the bolt lock-up into battery did not always function reliably- but the original straight op rod did- so they went back to that design- Thanks For The Memories!!!

[Researcher]

Harry Gough was an engraver at Parker Bros., and chief engraver of the engraving department from 1887 to 1898. Harry's sons John A. (Jack) Gough and William H. Gough apprenticed under him. William H. Gough took over running the engraving department from his Father in 1899, and ran it until 1911, when he left to head up the engraving department at the A.H. Fox Gun Co. All the while William H. Gough was running the engraving department at A.H. Fox Gun Co. he generally only did the highest grade guns, and spent most of his engraving time on high-end commission work from Winchester, Colt, Marlin, etc. When the Godshalk's sold out the gun business to Savage, William H. Gough went to Utica. Savage management apparently didn't like his doing commission work from competitors in their factory, so he moved his engraving business to town and operated independently into the 1950s.

P.S. Great old Model 12!!! I'll give you $50 more than Murphy!!!

[Jared V.]

Great info Dave. Any knowledge of where John Gough was employed after he left Winchester in 1918?
Jared V

[Researcher]

As far as I know, the collector most knowlegable on the Gough family is Tom Wyraz at Fox River Sporting --

http://www.foxriversporting.com/about-us/

[Richard Flanders]

This engraved M12 is a very nice item and the thread has been educational. I think it is illegal at some level for a serious shotgun guy to NOT own at least one M12 in their shooting/collecting career. My dad bought us one when I was 12... a mint condition 20ga... for all of $45! Hell, I had just paid $35 for my Mossberg .22 bolt gun. $45 for a M12? Unbelievable even then. Unfortunately, someone eventually stole it out of the back seat my Chevy II, while it was parked in our driveway if you can believe that.

[charlie cleveland]

to bad about your gun...what year was the chevy 2.... charlie