16 Gauge Vulcan, 1 Frame 28 inch barrels choked m,f

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

Then for those who know the recoil energy formula, which of these loads do you think will have the least recoil energy? One of the two 1 oz 1200 FPS loads or the Fed 1oz 1165 FPS load?

Okay. I found a shooters recoil formula. Calculator is setup for rifles but it should calculate out the same. Had to convert grains to drams and ounces of powder and shot. I ounce of shot is 437.5 grains and 2.5 drams of powder is 68.36 grains of powder. Looking at Bruce's table for my 16 Gauge I used a 7lb weight for the gun. With these inputs it calculates out at 32.85 foot lbs for the federal load.

Since I/we don't know how much powder is used in the RST loads then its hard to calculate the differences. But its an interesting point. If the charges are all the same just put in 1200 fps for the RST loads and keep then recoil energy goes up to 34.4 lbs. Then the recoil energy is less for the Federals by 2 lbs, thereabout. That is only about 4.5% difference and maybe negligible due to certain vagaries.

For giggles went and calculated what an 8 pound 12 gauge would produce at 1200 fps, 3.5 drams 1 1/8 ounce load. That recoil is 45 lbs. That is a 28% increase. If gun frame is about the same on a 12 to 16 gauge Parker and assuming wood is about same thickness, that is about 10 or more extra pounds being exerted on the stock. That might be the difference in whether old american walnut splitting out, or not.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

Parker 16ga guns were intended to shoot and were patterned with a 1oz load driven by 2 3/4 drams, which generally equates to about 1180fps. Parker patterning hang tags and published specs by Parker bear this out and it is true for any PArker barrel. If you believe that your barrels are cracked, pitted or thin to the extent that shooting the design load is dangerous, I would not shoot the gun. If you believe that your stock is cracked or oil soaked weak then I suggest taking the stock off and correcting the damage or restocking so that the gun is safe to to shoot with the design loads.

Bruce thanks for your inputs. Very interesting. So as a hedge and what your suggesting, and is just an opinion based on your personal belief, is don't go over a 1 ounce load or 2 3/4 drams of powder, assuming all powder is the same and velocities don't exceed 1180 rounded to 1200. Then it should be copacetic If everything else checks out with the gun. Therefore the really only advantage RST or Polywad are offering is store bought ammunition that is 2.5 inch shells to fit old chambered 2.5 inch guns.

[Bruce Day]

Yes. But I sometimes shoot 1 1/8 oz loads in my 1921 P or late Rem barrelled C.

Studies published in DGJ show a 5 to 8 percent increase in chamber pressure of an expanded length 2 3/4 “ inch cartridge over one 1/8” shorter. SAAMI tolerances for cartridge length for a nominal 2 3/4” load are 2 3/4 to 2 5/8”. If you actually measure you will find anywhere from 2 1/2 to 2 3/4” are common. Winchester AA are commonly short. Parker chambers were purposefully 1/8 short for better gas sealing. In my opinion, this small short chamber consternation is much to do about nothing of consequence.

Parker 16ga normal chamber length is 2 9/16”. Barrel snd chamber dimensions are provided in TPS, which is a necessity for any serious Parker shooter or collector. TPS also identifies the max service load for all gauges, which equates to the SAAMI max service load in use at the time. A 1 1/8 oz at 2 3/4 will be at max, these nasty to shoot 1 1/8 at 3 will be over. SAAMI maxes have increased for both service loads and proof loads and present SAAMI maxes will be over the limit for any vintage gun I am aware of .


All the pictured brands are fine. RST s are $110/ case, the others may be more costly. I think Midway had Feds for $120/case and often not available. RST is nice because they make up what you want when you want. Besides, Morris Baker is a good guy. But no, to get an acceptable 1 oz load, you neither have to use RST or reload. You do though if you want a 7/8 oz load.

[Southpaw]

Thank you Bruce. I am not yet an avid Parker collector but an enthusiast. I think you need to own more the one be considered a collector. Lets just say I am very enthused about the one I got. Will hopefully be looking to pick up some other guns down the road. Hard right now to find the time to shoot the ones I got. BTW in your 16's how are those guns choked and have you used spreader loads.

BTW I have nothing against any shot shell company and I like small companies like RST. I went to webpage and did find that do offer a 7/8 spreader load that has a velocity of 1150 fps in 16 and its a 2.5 inch shell.

Also you seem to like the 16 gauge. Mine is a 1907 construct year that is factory chambered at 2 3/4. Is that rare in your opinion for these type guns in an era of 2.5 thereabout chambered guns. Also if its a 28 inch barrel did they forge the same and bore out a blank to meet the 2 3/4 chamber but did not extend the thicker metal down the tube into the forcing cone. Probably not explaining that right.

[Bruce Day]

I think it’s 6 PArker 16’s from AHE to PHE with one an O frame G hammer. And one Lefever EE 16. There are some are choked full and fuller, some open , and my favorite IC and full. I don’t like spreader wads, I think they produce inconsistent patterns . I like somewhat tight chokes. If you have a crossing bird of some size, just hit them in the head and neck. If you have a close going away away bird, just wait a bit or shoot just off center for the pattern so you don’t blow the bird up. If it’s ruffed grouse, the shot is what you get and fast and I like open chokes.

[Bruce Day]

[QUOTE=Todd Poe

Also you seem to like the 16 gauge. Mine is a 1907 construct year that is factory chambered at 2 3/4. Is that rare in your opinion for these type guns in an era of 2.5 thereabout chambered guns. Also if its a 28 inch barrel did they forge the same and bore out a blank to meet the 2 3/4 chamber but did not extend the thicker metal down the tube into the forcing cone. Probably not explaining that right.[/QUOTE]

I prefer the 16 over most others. The standard Parker 16 has 2 9/16 chambers . It is easy to mismeasure. If yours truly has 2 3/4, I suspect the chambers have been lengthened. Your V grade 16 /28 is likely on a No. 1 frame which will be about .110 wall thickness at the forcing cone and unless honed out will have a nominal bore of .660 diameter, leaving a likely wall thickness of .030 to .035. This is more than enough to bear any normal cartridge.

Remember that choke is over rated. The difference between game effective chokes of full and IC at 40 yards is about 6 to 8 inches. Open chokes add inches whereas misses are usually by feet. If you are concerned about blowing up the bird, wait a little longer or go to a small shot size. Most game is shot within yardage where 71/2 size is effective. As an example, here is what Parker tells us in The Small Bore Shot Gun. You can see that an effective killing circle ( six pellets on the bird) at 25 yards is 28” for cyl, 22” for Mod, and 18”for full. These are diameter, so cyl bore at 25 gives the shooter only 5 inches over full choke . So this tells me to practice shooting rather than worrying about chokes, or simply moving to smaller shot.

[Bruce Day]

Finally, here is a table from a Parker brochure at the time your V16 was made and showing all gauge loads. For 16ga the not recommended load of 1oz with 3 drams ( nitro powder by then, nitro meaning smokeless) was because of the 3 dram, not the 1oz. One ounce 16 loads were commonly used by Parker with 2 1/2 and 2 3/4drams. You can cross determine pressure by the velocity, shown in the table at 100 feet, not muzzle velocity as now used. The velocity at 100ft is close to or the same as the 1150 to 1200 FPS at muzzle.

These loads are fully consistent with commercially available loads today so unless there is something wrong with your gun, you should be able to shoot today what your gun was designed to shoot when it was made. I’m not going to presume the soundness or unsoundness of a gun in barrel or stock until examined.

[Southpaw]

Awesome, Bruce. Thank you so much for your time, efforts and explanations. You have really helped me. Yep my gun is factory stamped 2 3/4 chamber and pretty certain it was never touched or bored out.

Long story/short but gun was bought in late 70's by my dad and it was only the second time that gun was ever sold. I was 13 or 14 and was with him when he bought it from an older gentlemen at a back water gun show in Alabama selling his family guns. He really did not want to sell them but he could not hunt anymore and had no one to give them to. He told us the complete history of the gun and how his grandad ordered the gun and paid $25 for it. Said it was his grand dads only gun and he used it for everything, but always took care of and cleaned the gun and only cleaned bores and wiped it down with an oily cloth. He said he learned to shoot with the gun when he was a kid and his grandad would threaten to whoop him if he did not take care of it the way he showed him. He even told me stories about how some the dings in the stock occurred and how sick he was when he found a little rust on outside of gun after going duck hunting. I think he knew one day I would end up with it so he wanted me to know about it. Gun is used and worn but has character and knowing a little of its history there is no way I could ever really do too much other keep it clean and use it, when I can.

My dad loved the gun but could'nt shoot it to well. It was too tight on the chokes and he wanted a classic old double to grouse hunt. He thought about getting barrels reamed but never did. His go to quail/grouse gun was an SKB straight grip with a single selective trigger. He got so set with that gun he never could get used to double triggers. He passed it on to me about 20 years ago since I was doing some Continental Pheasant hunts that were perfect for this gun. It takes a bit to get used to the drop but after practicing throwing it on shoulder and remembering where to hit that stock on the cheek I can do allright. I have taken a few birds in a dove field that were loping along with that left barrel that I stepped off close to 60 yards, which still amazes me because they just folded.

Seems like most hunting I do nowadays are these set out birds. I grew up hunting wild quail and grouse, on a flush I can't help myself but to get on birds quick when they flush and shoot quickly in phase. Second nature and almost a conditioned reflex. I tried slowing it down to let them get out there but then I start aiming and that never really works to well for me.

Spent a weekend hunting with a guy named Todd Rogers, his gig was an Orvis employed shooting instructor and as a guide down on a South Georgia plantation. He coached me up a bunch and I learned alot at skeet range and hunting with him. He watched me shoot an awful lot and he tried to get me to slow it down but it just was not natural to me. I guess I got too much nervous fast twitch muscle to slow it down. Plus first double barrel gun I got my dad gave me and it was an old Spainish double that was essentially cyl, cyl. If you did not learn to shoot quick then those dang birds would be out of range toot sweet.

[Bruce Day]

One of the great things about collecting and shooting Parkers is that we have a wealth of facts and figures about service loads, proof loads, acceptable pressures, Parker recommended loads and data from Parker published in The Parker Story and in contemporary sales and information brochures. We have the Double Gun Journal with its actual engineering based testing in the Finding Out For Myself articles.
So when a person asks for advice here , he can be given real information and not just opinions or personal beliefs. I think we have a lot of smart people who come here and appreciate knowing what Parker said so that they can draw their own conclusions. We have these advantages with Parker. I like Lefevers also, but we lack as much factory information with them . I don’t know enough about Foxes or Smiths to say.

Plus some people like the way they look. Top one owned by a buddy. Bottom one is a 16ga from the closet.

I invite you to join the PGCA.

[Southpaw]

Golly Bruce;

Those guns are masterpieces. I would be afraid to shoot them, even though they probably shoot the same as my field grade gun. Also picked up on your use of the word closet, that can't be same place you store coats as well. Reckon closet means gun safe in your neck of the woods.