E.M.Reilly & Company London

[Kensal Rise]

Mr. Williams:
First, you have reproduced a copyright property without permission.

Secondly, you reaffirm my beliefs about gentlemanly decorum. If you have any issues with my material - which has been reviewed and authenticated by the Reilly family - then a PM on this board is the appropriate channel for such discussion.

[Gene Williams]

John, you are right. I should not have challenged you in this forum. For this I apologize. But I read an article I bought and it refers to a subject on which I've devoted a great deal of time and personal interest. And if you are wrong on your facts in your article then you might be wrong on your conclusions.

You have published your article for the public...you should be open to a peer review. I would be willing to walk through with you off line re the specific questions I have about your article. Or, better yet since you have accused me of malfeasance (of reading your article), we can do it here in public. After all that's what book reviews are all about. In the end Reilly historians should welcome each other. I don't feel welcomed. Nor do I support everything you've written. (and a simple look at Reilly addresses on gun ribs will demonstrate what I'm talking about)

Let me know John...because I'll print here every error in your article. There's too much disinformation on the internet and your tone is not pleasant.

[Gene Williams]

And, Sir, anyone who would put this out as a business model from the beginning of his gun making career could hardly be hoping to compete with Prudey...

"Early in the present century, Messrs. Reily, gun makers, were established near Chancery Lane, in Holborn, where they enjoyed the patronage of members of the legal profession, besides an extensive country (gentry) connection Their premises were extensive, and afforded every facility for carrying on a large business. They adhered to the principle, that “It is not sufficient that an article be cheap; it must also bear the test of excellence.” (quotes from Wyman’s Commercial Encyclopedia) (1888).

[Opening Day]

Mr. Williams, please take this discussion off line, one this is the "Parker Board" not the Double Gun Board, plus if you have a major disagreement with someone that too should be done by pm we do not want to hear the back and forth disagreements you may have with John.

[Gene Williams]

Sir, thank you for your suggestion. I will follow your instruction. However, I'd like to make a few points in my defense:
1) This specific board is for "General Discussions about other Fine Doubles." It is not about Parkers.
2) John published a widely disseminated article in the most prestigious journal of double guns in America. He did some pioneering research. However, he was wrong on many of his facts and his underlying premis is suspect..and if these are allowed to go unchallenged they will morph into reality.
3) His work is public. My problem is not personal. It is professional.

If you want to suppress the interchange of ideas and the validation of assertions - that is fine. But it does you no honor...neither intellectually nor ethically. John should be able to defend his article. I should be able to challenge that article and his defense. The scientific method demands this and nothing more.

[Gene Williams]

Oh, and by the way..how about that original SN and the name on the rib...would love to see it.

[TARNATION !!!]

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

Oh, and by the way..how about that original SN and the name on the rib...would love to see it.

Ok here are some pics of trigger bow tang showing SN as well as all markings on the barrels. Hope this adds to the knowledge base. Merry Christmas, Jack

[TARNATION !!!]

Originally Posted by Gene Williams

Sirs, I believe the attached line below compiled by me on Doublegunshop has the most complete information on Reilly every compiled. It includes SN's of about 300 extant Reilly's which include "marker" SN's enabling most Reilly's to be dated fairly precisely.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...38&nt=9&page=1

Interesting to find this gun in that link. 15129 was purchased at auction 2015 August 29. I think it was then purchased by the guy who had it at the small town gun show. Now I purchased it. It would be interesting to know who consigned it to auction. Somewhere along the way somebody held on to it for many years. There are a few light external pits just under the forend. Other than that, the gun is near pristine. Quite happy to be the custodian for a while. Poor wife or kids will have to deal with all this when I'm gone. Not much seems to arrive here that doesn't stay. Some even get to shoot pheasants from time to time. I toy with the idea to use this one but then I also know how easy it is to blemish the wood or metal in the field. I don't think this gun really saw much use in its history. Cheers, Jack

[Gene Williams]

I'll post a portion of the SN dating line re 15129 from DGS. Whole shebang can be read there,,,,check at the end of page 9 for the most clear explanation of dates: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...=436538&page=9


[color:#FF0000]1862 - Feb 1868[/color]: 13300 - 15250 [color:#3366FF] London exhibition. From SN 13333 firmly identified as 1862 to 15270 firmly identified as Feb 1868, he numbered almost 2,000 guns. About 340/year. 27/month.[/color]

[color:#FF0000]13333[/color] - E.M. Reilly & Co. 502 New Oxford St., London; .577 cal. Rifle; percussion breech loader, [color:#FF0000]Green Bros patent 1862 firm date[/color].
13590 - E.M Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 10 bore; Rifle SxS; Percussion hammer gun muzzle loader.
13599 - E.M. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 12 bore; Rifle SxS; 2 groove Percussion double express Hammer gun, muzzle loader.
14115 - E.M. Reilly (nothing further - no photos, etc). Shotgun SxS; Center break, Jones under leaver, hammer gun.
14580 - E.M. Reilly & Co. London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS; Percussion hammergun, Muzzle loader.

[color:#CC33CC]1866:[/color]: 14540?-14900? [color:#3366FF]1866 British army formally adopted the .577 Snider Enfield as a stop-gap breech loading rifle. Reilly built Sniders and converted some Muzzle-loading Enfields to the Snider action. Any Reilly Snider should be 1866 or later. However, unless he built them to measure, he did not seem to number them. [/color]
[color:#CC33CC]1867[/color]: 14900?-15240? [color:#3366FF]Huge Reilly success at Paris exhibition that summer; Gold medals appear on labels; [/color]

14985 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London. 16 ga. Shotgun SxS; Sidelock, underlever hammer gun, (Buffum).
15129 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 Oxford St. London. 12 bore. Shotgun SxS; pinfire, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
15143 - E.M. Reilly & Co, 502 Oxford St. London, 12ga. Shotgun SxS; underlever, hammergun.

[color:#FF0000]Feb 1868 - Aug 1886:[/color] 15270-27340? [color:#3366FF]In Feb 1868 he opened Rue Scribe, Paris. Many of his guns subsequently had the Paris address. 15270 is the first gun with Rue Scribe. He closed it in Late 1886. 27340 is the last gun with Rue Scribe. [/color] [color:#FF0000]Note: Internet "urban legend" has him closing Rue Scribe in 1872 including one author of an article in DGJ. A glance at ads and gun ribs below show this is just poor scholarship. [/color][color:#3366FF]18.5 years. 222 mos. 12,100 guns. = about 55/mo. 660/yr. (this is a guess estimate but a good one).


There are some guns early on in the 1868-86 series that perhaps should be later in the date series - I'm thinking of the 1871 Martini Henry which seems a bit early for him to have produced and the 1873 gun that has a Needham’s Patent 18547 (which may or may not be C1874). This would indicate a production of fewer guns early on and more later.

This is a long stretch of time; The only way to narrow down the year dates is to check patents on the guns. If people look inside their Reilly's which have SN's during this period, would appreciate info on these patents - use of which (not non-use) could alter the above chronology - And I'm already thinking of altering the chronology a bit to allow for fewer guns produced early in the period and more at the end):
1872 - Patent: Anson's fore-end fastener patent no. 3791
1874 - Patent: Needham patented a hammerless, barrel-cocking gun which was also the first ejector in 1874.
1875 - Patent: W.M. Scott's patent 3223
1875 - Patent: Anson & Deely patent; the first hammerless gun with top lever.
1878 - Patent: Mills 3rd bite patent no 4980
1878 - Patent: Patent Number 761 was recorded by William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker

Feb 1868-Jan 1869: 15250-15800

15270 - E.M. Reilly and Company Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe Paris. .577. Rifle SxS; Underlever. BPE. Non-rebounding hammers.
15283 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS; Jones under lever. Buffum.
15346 - E.M. Reilly (no further info). 12ga. Shotgun SxS; Under lever, hammer gun.
15531 - “Reilly & Co. (no address mentioned). .50cal. Rifle Single barrel. Enfield type. Hammer gun. Muzzle loader. Buffum .
15625 - E.M. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London, 2 Rue Scribe Paris. 4bore. Shotgun SxS. Underlever. Orig pinfire conv-to centerfire.

1869: 15800-16460

15857 - E.M. Reilly, 502 Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Centerbreak, underlever. Non-rebound hammers.
15961 - E.M. Reilly (no further descriptions). 12bore. Rifle SxS; Centerbreak, Underlever Hammergun.
16341 - E.M. Reilly (No further descriptions). .577cal. Rifle, Snider SxS. Jones underlever; hammer gun(Weiland). First rebounding hammers (1867 patent)