Dangerous Damascus

[Kevin McCormack]

Originally Posted by chuck brunner

Boys its been a while....I have seen my buddy John's little Bernard gun....Shes a beauty....The "C" was the epitome of parker excellence......ain't that right "uncle rich" and Bruce.........Johns the best. Always something special coming out of "duck central"

Now wait just a minute - Chuck WHOOOOOO?????

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;207794]I'm pretty sure the side panel engraving determines the "Roundel" style of engraving Larry.


No, you're wrong - a roundel is a circular shape or sphere of any size or location usually containing an artistic rendition or symbol, regardless of where it appears on an object.

[Kevin McCormack]

DEL G-R-E-G-O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pa SxS]

How do you guys remember all this???

I can't remember what I had for lunch

[Dean Romig]

[QUOTE=Kevin McCormack;207811]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

I'm pretty sure the side panel engraving determines the "Roundel" style of engraving Larry.


No, you're wrong - a roundel is a circular shape or sphere of any size or location usually containing an artistic rendition or symbol, regardless of where it appears on an object.

Sorry Kevin, in this context we're talking about the side panel's determining if the gun is a 'Roundel engraved gun.'

I understand your point and I agree with it except in this particular context of the side panel's engraving style.





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[Keavin Nelson]

I think it had more to do with marketing by the gun company's, twist steel was harder to find, more expensive to make/import. Fluid steel barrels were for the most part local, cheaper to make, but didn't have the handsome patterns. So to sell plane steel, the "old" damascus had to be less, either strong or?

[Drew Hause]

Keavin: Almost all the 'rough forged tubes' used by U.S. doublegun makers, both pattern welded and fluid steel, were sourced from Belgium, and they said so.

Hearings, Vol. 14, United States 60th Congress 2nd Session
November, 1908.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XW0vAAAAMAAJ&dq
We further request that shotguns barrels in single tubes forged rough bored…be continued on the free list as at present, because their manufacture or production can not be economically undertaken in this country.
Hunters Arms co., Fulton, N.Y., Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca N.Y., Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn., Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N.Y., J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass., N.R. Davis & Son, Assonet, Mass., Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N.Y.

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDk...AJ&pg=PA879&dq
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman: Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.
Senator McCumber: Does the American manufacturer use the unfinished importation?
Mr. Hunter: He uses what are designated in the present bill as “gun barrels rough-bored.” That is what we import.
Senator McCumber: To what extent do you use those?
Mr. Hunter: Entirely.
Senator McCumber: You do not manufacture any of them?
Mr. Hunter: No, sir. We have no facilities for making shotgun barrels.
Senator McCumber: Does any other company make them?
Mr. Hunter: There are a few that make them for themselves only. None are made to be sold. We never have been able to buy any in this country.

THE TESTIMONY OF W.A. KING REPRESENTING PARKER GUN CO.
Mr. King: I can speak only for our own company in so far as wages go. For instance, on the question of barrels, Mr. Hunter informed your committee that some years ago some of the manufacturers of this country attempted to make barrels. We made some barrels: we built an addition to the factory, put in some up-to-date machinery, and brought some men from Belgium to show our blacksmiths how to do it. We had to pay our blacksmiths not less than 32 cents an hour, up to 40 cents, and we gave it up, because the highest wages paid the Belgian blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of barrel are 11 cents per hour. That is what is paid to the highest-priced man employed.
Senator Smoot: In Belgium?
Mr. King: In Belgium: yes, sir. That is where all of our barrels are imported from, with the exception of our very high-grade Whipple (probably a typo for Whitworth) steel barrels.

I certainly agree about the marketing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hIiY62Hx4/edit

[Dean Romig]

And... the 'pattern welded' or composite barrels made by Parker Bros. were only in about 1877, '78, and '79.

Aside from the 'marketing' factor - which was huge - was the fact that importation was rendered practically impossible by the attacks on any and all commercial shipping by the Germans in WW-I. That fact alone put a definite end to importing raw barrels from Europe.





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[Paul Harm]

Drew, I believe Remington was making their own " fluid steel " barrels long before 1908 - although they didn't call them " fluid steel ". They had rolling mills to form barrels from a piece of stock 2" round by 8" long . Their rifle barrels were sold world wide.

[Drew Hause]

“Fire-Arms Manufacture” 1880, U.S. Dept. of Interior, Census Office
“The earliest use of decarbonized steel for gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, [E. Remington & Sons] who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing Company of Chicopee, Massachusetts as early as 1846."

All courtesy of Dave Noreen.
I don't believe the source of Remington's "Ordnance Steel" is known

The Remington (hammer) Model of 1889 No. 1 with “Decarbonized Steel” was offered until 1908.

The Remington No. 3 Model of 1893 single was listed with “Blue Steel” and No. 9 Model of 1902 with “Special Steel”.
The No. 9 hang tag (courtesy of David Noreen) states: “The barrels of this gun have been THOROUGHLY TESTED and are guaranteed for all standard brands of Smokeless and Black powder, when properly - but not excessively, loaded.” The maximum load was 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. of Bulk or Dense Smokeless powders.

It is assumed the Remington Steel used on the A Grade Hammerless Model of 1894 starting in 1897, K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless, and Model of 1894 Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) is similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester “Rolled Steel”. The April 1897 Remington catalog stated “Remington blued steel barrels are manufactured in our own works” and the Sears catalog No. 112 c. 1902 states the K Grade has “fine Decarbonized steel barrels”.

Remington introduced Ordnance Steel for the (Model 1894) Hammerless Double in the April 1897 catalog.
The 1902 catalog stated the Remington Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 psi.


Winchester Nickel Steel was introduced for the Model 1894 rifle about 1896 and was sourced from Bethlehem Steel Co. and Midvale Steel Co.
George Madis, The Winchester Book
Nickel steel barrels for the .32/40 and .38/55 calibers Winchester 1894 were available after 1895 as a special order option. The barrels were stamped “M.N.S.”.