Need Comprehensive low pressure reloading how-to

[John Cleveland]

Attempt to upload Word version of loads table.

[Keith Doty]

John, I have purchased all kinds of components thru Gunbroker, etc. If they can't take a major CC for the transaction I recommend avoiding them. I did a bit of searching on a couple of dealers that wouldn't and found addresses that didn't match the business and other "odd" things, looked like less than reputable vendors. Same with Paypal. I don't think Paypal allows any ammunition or powder/primer sales so the "friends and family" deal is sketchy in my opinion. I HAVE used Paypal for wad purchases, no issue.

[John Cleveland]

Keith, thanks. The PayPal thing made my antennae go up and I didn’t complete it.

However, it is interesting that the one I was ordering Universal from, ended up later showing on their site the order being processed using ApplePay. I had initially clicked that as a payment option, but there were some problems submitting to that. It will be interesting to see if it went through and if I get the powder. At least AP is paid using my Amex card, so I can dispute it if it is bogus.

I am hopeful about the possibilities of one of the Hogdgon 2 1/2 loads being good for my gun. I would be interested in your opinion on any of them. (I hope that the load chart uploaded.) I can buy the B&P and Fiocchi locally in 2 3/4, shoot them and cut them down to 2 1/2.

[William Parks]

Keith, thanks for sharing those recipes for the “very good” loads. I’m looking for recipes for a 12ga Damascus gun, would those work or were those NOT for Damascus in your example? Also, you mentioned Longshot powder in your writing but the recipes say “international” which do you prefer for lower pressures?

[Keith Doty]

Originally Posted by William Parks

Keith, thanks for sharing those recipes for the “very good” loads. I’m looking for recipes for a 12ga Damascus gun, would those work or were those NOT for Damascus in your example? Also, you mentioned Longshot powder in your writing but the recipes say “international” which do you prefer for lower pressures?

Those were actually for my steel barrel Parkers, always looking for good performance with the least pressure I can get. Better for the barrels, the wood, and the shooter! I also recently got back from testing some Damascus gun loads, also with International. The goal was 1200 FPS and 6K PSI, got real close. See them below. I will have to dig for the 12 ga. Longshot loads. I used it for some 10 ga as well as 2o ga. with very good success. Third page below was the best in my opinion. These were specifically a quest for Damascus gun loads.

[Paul Harm]

If you're going ahead with the 2 1/2" shells, fiber wads can be used for the shorter stack height. Precision REloading and BPI both carry them. Order the 1/2" cushion wads and you can cut them with a thumb nail if necessary. Years ago when plastic wads first came out and all data was given for fiber wads, the reloading manuals said to go down 10% if using plastic wads. They sealed better. No one even worried about what kind of plastic wad it was or who made it. So much different than today.
I once wanted to make some 2 1/2" shells using Claybusters wads. So I called them stating what I wanted to do with data for around 7500psi. I ask if I could just use one of their shorter wads, like one for 1 3/8oz of shot instead of the 7/8oz. He said without testing he couldn't say for sure, but using the same manufacture and the same base, [ only the cushion height was different ] he said he wouldn't be afraid in the least. I'm only saying this because reloading shotgun shells at the lower pressures than say pistol or rifle, if using a little common sense it's pretty hard to screw things up. If you reload at the 5 to 7000psi range you're giving yourself a couple thousand psi safety factor. Good luck.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Paul Harm

I may not be in the good graces of some but what I'm going to write has worked for me since about 2005 shooting Damascus barrel guns. Been reloading since 1970.
You can shoot 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chambered gun - the pressure only goes up about 500psi. Sherman Bell did test about this and published them in the DGJ [ not in business anymore ]. He also tried to blow up in two different test, 40 Damascus barreled wall hanger SxSs. He took one Parker to 30,000psi before it let go. NONE of the wall hangers would blow with Remington proof loads of around 18,000psi. The reason I'm writing this is I believe you're worrying too much about shooting your gun. Most guys like to keep loads around 7500psi, but 8 or 8500psi loads wouldn't do any damage. I personally like to keep mine under 8000psi. If you call Alliant or Hodgdons I believe they'll still mail you one of their reloading handbooks for free. I find them much easier to use than the internet.
A Mec 600, or Jr as they're called, is probably the best bet for the money. A used one should still be found for around $100. Figure in a powder scale [ electronic for $35 ] from BPI or Precision Reloading.
Look up reloads for target shooting with 1 oz or less and you'll find many loads. The big problem is finding powder and primers. I lump primers in two groups - mild and hot. The Fed 209A and CCI 209M are hot. The rest mild. If you're reloading at say 7000psi then primer subing with in the two groups is irrelevant. Pressures won't change enough to make a difference. Cheddite primers are about the only ones you can find right now. So don't worry if the data calls for Win, Rem, Noble primers - they're all mild.
Shells in 12ga are either straight walled or tapered. The only tapered wall hulls are Win or Rem. And some new Federal hulls because they bought Remington reloading industry and label some of their shell Fed, but use Remington machinery. Most guys use a SW wad in a SW hull, and taper wad in a taper hull. The tapered wad will fit in a straight hull but you'll loose pressure. Straight wads won't fit in Tapered wall hulls.
As Brian said, with pressures in the 6 to 7000psi range you have a little leeway if the load is somewhat higher. Enough said - good luck. Find your powder first and build your load around it.

I will start this off by saying I am far from being the most experienced Reloader or shooter of Damascus Parkers. My eyes are going to melt from their sockets from all the reading I've been doing concerning the subject of appropriate shells to use in a Parker with Damascus barrels. From what I have read Parker intended a shooter to use 2 3/4" shells in 2 5/8" chambers to acheive "A better pattern", they also used 3 1/4 drams of 1 14 oz lead for serious Trap Competition or waterfowl hunting. Sherman Bell did his best to blow up a Damascus Parker and succeded at over 30,000 PSI the same pressure that it took to destroy a pair of Vulcan Steel barrels. Recently, I believe on Gunbroker I saw a Parker that left the factory with Damascus barrels that had been blued and mismarked as being Titanic Steel, this gun had a PGCA Letter that attested to it being a gun with Titanic Steel barrels, I wonder how long that gun was fired under the assumption it had fluid steel barrels and what kind of shells had been run through it. All this reading and most of it on this forum have got me saying what's wrong with 3 Dram equivalent 1 oz. 2 3/4" factory loaded shotshells. 1145 FPS 1180 FPS and perhaps 1200 FPS

[Bruce Day]

Factory proof loads were 10,800 for early guns , 13,500 psi for later . Now SAAMI 2 3/4 proof is 15,000 ( got to have that Black Cloud Prairie Storm to kill a pen raised pheasant ) .

Service loads used by Parker were 80 percent of proof pressures.

[Mike of the Mountain]

The problem isn't really the barrel or action taking damage. The problem is in most cases, 100 plus year old wood that can ve very dry or oil soaked and punk. Snotty shells have a tendency to beat up both the stock and shooter. The shooter can get over it, the stock can't. Cracking, splitting, chipping and breaking cost $$. Better to reload 1 oz or less and under 1200 FPS and build in a safety net for your stock than to lay waste and have to dole out $2K+.

[Stan Hillis]

Personally, I like to stay in the 1150 fps range for everything I shoot, except steel, even modern loads in my Perazzi MX 8. High muzzle velocities are very misleading. So many people think that it significantly cuts the amount of lead you must see on birds/targets. The difference is so insignificant that you'd be better off worrying about the relative humidity affecting lead.

It is solid physics that the faster a projectile leaves the muzzle the faster is slows down. IOW, a load that leaves at 1100 fps is not 100 fps slower, at 30 yards or farther, than one that leaves at 1200 fps.

I agree with Mike K. 100% about what is most concerning with these old guns .......... it's the wood that goes first. I've only seen one damascus barrel ruined by overload, and I warned the guy not to use that powder/wad/hull combination before he did it. The chamber opened up ruining the fine old Boswell double. He claims it was a base wad separation from the previous shot. Nah, obstructions don't blow out the side of the chamber, they damage the barrel just before the obstruction. it may be remotely possible that the base wad lodged in the forcing cone, but I'll never believe it. I know what he loaded into those shells, because he told me. This is the same guy who put a 100 hp Subaru engine on a GyroCopter to get more rpms, resulting in throwing a blade off the prop, which resulted in an ignominious landing. He just has to push the limit on everything, ofttimes much to his chagrin.