Compare and Contrast

[Cold Spring]

On the Model 21/16g I cited here earlier the right barrel is choked/stamped WS1.

[James L. Martin]

All 21's I have seen were right barrel ws1 and left ws2 unless special ordered, in which case you could get any combination of any choke.

[James L. Martin]

Found some more info on web about WS1 chokes. I quote:
" I think I've found Winchester's patent filed in 1933 and granted in 1936 for the Winchester skeet choke. It wasn't based on any certain constriction or bore diameter. It had to do with a certain taper boring of the choke"
You can see the taper after the constriction area the taper goes to the end of the barrel and is larger than the bore diameter. I know Beretta copied the ws1 choke in a choke tube they made, I had one.

[Cold Spring]

Thanks Jim, yes I'm aware the Patented WS1 choke is a reverse bell/hourglass profile, and unless special ordered the WS1 was typically on the right barrel of 21's. Same with the special hourglass profiled/right barrel choke of Fox "Skeet and Upland" guns whether double or single triggered. Not sure how Savage/Fox worked around Winchester's Patent. All told it seems that Parker's system for Skeet with left barrel more open choked was atypical.

Adding to my earlier post, I also owned a 16g Model 21 s/n 161xx that was stamped "Skeet" on the trigger plate, and it had full tapered chokes in both barrels, no reverse bell/hourglass choke in either. Right barrel .012" constriction and .015" in the left barrel. Winchester would do pattern testing and boring adjustments to confirm patterning as intended/ordered ..... the Big Red W didn't just rely on the difference between bore and choke diameters. Quality from a well respected company!

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Unless special ordered the WS1 was typically on the right barrel of 21's. Same with the special hourglass profiled/right barrel choke of Fox "Skeet and Upland" guns whether double or single triggered. Not sure how Savage/Fox worked around Winchester's Patent. All told it seems that Parker's system for Skeet with left barrel more open choked was atypical.!

Just a point - Parker’s Skeet choking was quite typical in that the more tightly choked barrel (first shot at the outgoing clay) was ‘typically’ the right barrel, just as was Winchester’s WS1 in the right barrel of the 21’s.





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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, you have the Winchester chokes backwards. The WS1 is the more open choke, which would be like the Parker "Skeet In".

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Bill - I stand corrected.

I was laboring under the delusion that WS1 would be the first shot taken in Skeet but, in view of my earlier thought that the single trigger on Skeet guns eliminates the idea that the tighter choke be one barrel of the other.

This is part of the progression of sxs in the clays games.





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[Researcher]

As well as Savage's Skeet Cylinder for the right barrels of their A.H. Fox Skeet & Upland Game Guns my Remington Sportsman and Model 31 guns with SKEET barrels have a similar choke to the WS 1.

Walter Snyder provided me with this Ithaca drawing for Skeet chokes, but neither of my Ithaca made skeet guns are choked like this --

Choke For Skeet Gun.jpg

but I wish they were. My 12-gauge NID No. 4E has .009" and .016" with normal tapers and my Lefever A-Grade 20-gauge .008" and .014". They are choke stamped on the barrel flats S & S.

[Dean Romig]

There’s that “hourglass” choke profile again, in the right barrel…





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[Drew Hause]

Capt. E.C. Crossman “Skeet Gun Patterns” in August 1936 Hunting & Fishing

He formerly believed…“the proper boring for a double 12 Skeet gun consisted of an improved cylinder right for Station 8 and incomers, and a much tighter tube on the left for the outgoers and all singles except Station 8; such a boring as improved modified or the famous Winchester No. 2 Skeet, or in barrel measurements, around .015 inch.”
But now feels “the Winchester No. 2 Skeet boring is too tight…” and “improved cylinder or No. 1 boring is both barrels seems about the right dope.”
He went on to criticize the Cutts spreader tube on single barrel guns for skeet, but did not define the tube diameter.
He mentioned a Fox with .011” left and a Model 32 Remington “bored for skeet” lower barrel .012”.

“Improved cylinder is the greatest degree to which a plain barrel should be opened, this being not less than .004”. The finest example of this at present is the Winchester No. 1 Skeet boring, which has about .004 choke at a point 3” from the muzzle. The muzzle section then becomes larger…until finally the barrel at the muzzle is about …0.750” instead of the normal 0.730” of the 12. This is a relieved muzzle or bell muzzle, originated by Ithaca years ago.”