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06-19-2018, 09:33 PM | #23 | ||||||
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If you can win a pigeon shoot with it, it's a pigeon gun.
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06-19-2018, 11:24 PM | #24 | ||||||
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And if you can kill a duck with it, it's a duck gun.
And if you can kill a pheasant with it, it's a pheasant gun. And if you can kill a goose with it, it's a goose gun. I thought we were talking about "live bird guns"? My point was that the label "live bird gun" is a misnomer in so many cases. A 'pigeon gun' or a 'trap gun' or an 'inanimate target gun' or a 'clays gun' in those cases when describing a particular gun would be far better descriptions of what the gun was intended for. I've seen twenty-six inch 20 gauge and 16 gauge guns described as "live bird guns" for the simple reason that they were ordered without a safety. I know - it's a matter of semantics and it becomes like splitting hairs, but "live bird gun" is so often a misnomer. .
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06-20-2018, 07:51 AM | #25 | ||||||
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Well written Dean. You can take deer with a 22 Short or geese with a 410 or shoot live birds with any shotgun capable of 2 quick shots, but they're hardly optimal. The point here is that serious Live Bird shooters generally had dedicated guns ordered to their fit and configured for the sport. Besides Trap/clay guns, absence of a safety can be one of their criteria but there were upland hunters and waterfowlers who liked safetyless guns and those who do period readings will come across those references. There are also those who've never been invited to a live bird shoot to try it or even see how it's actually done but they can be so vocal in naming this or that SxS a "Live Bird gun".
Just for perspective here's a shot of a pigeon ring at a friend’s club, one of three, showing the handicap pads and the boundary fence if you expand the pic. Legal but "undisclosed location" and picture taken and used with permission. |
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06-20-2018, 09:27 AM | #26 | ||||||
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Just for some perspective, I have pictures of some of the founding members of the PGCA at a pigeon shoot that I organized. (including a picture of Oscar Gaddy shooting my Underlifter)
The location was/is legal, but just to be safe will be listed as Northern Mexico. |
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06-20-2018, 09:29 AM | #27 | ||||||
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Nice ring, Frank
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06-20-2018, 09:40 AM | #28 | ||||||
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What makes a Live Bird gun? Whatever gun Rolla Heikes happened to be using this week
Heikes was the first industry representatives in 1885, with the Lefever Gun Co. In 1895-96, Heikes participated in 67 tournaments (despite having malaria in the summer of 1895) and was high gun in 60 using a Winchester 1893 slide-action. He defeated Fred Gilbert in 1896 at the 2nd "E.C." Cup "Champion Inanimate Target Shot of the World" in New York and was 4th in the GAH at Live Birds. Prior to using the Winchester, he shot a L.C. Smith. He defeated Charles Grimm on Dec. 6 1897 for the Cast Iron Medal using a Winchester 1897. He defeated Fred Gilbert for the "E.C." Cup at Chicago, August 13, 1898 with a score of 140 to 137 out of 150 targets, then successfully defended the "Cast Iron Medal" against Fred Gilbert at Eau Claire, Wis., in August and W.R. Elliston in Nashville in October. In 1899 he used a Remington Hammerless Double to defeat E.D. Fulford for the "E.C." Cup in January and won the Sportsmen's Association Championship Trophy in the trapshooting tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden in March. He used a Parker at the 1900 GAH at Live Birds, then went back to his Remington to win the first Grand American at Clay Targets held at Interstate Park in New York City June 12-15, 1900. In November 1900, he was using a new single trigger Remington hammerless double. He was part of the victorious American team in the June 1901 Anglo-American Clay Bird Match using a Parker. He started 1902 shooting the Remington single trigger hammerless, then used a L.C. Smith at the Ohio State shoot and to take 3rd in the last GAH at Live Birds in Kansas City. He came back from Typhoid Fever in 1904 to take HOA at the Dominion of Canada Exhibition Shoot in Winnipeg again shooting a Remington. In 1905 he began shooting a Remington Autoloading Shotgun and was 2nd High Professional at the 1906 GAH.
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06-20-2018, 09:48 AM | #29 | ||||||
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Guns used at the 1899 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL3305013.pdf http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL3305014.pdf http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL3305016.pdf Guns: Parker- 78, Smith- 56, Greener- 31, Francotte- 24, Winchester- 12, Remington- 11, Cashmore- 10, Lefever- 6, Purdey- 5, Scott- 6, Colt- 4, Daly- 3, Stannard- 3, Boss- 2, Richards- 2, Baker- 2, Forehand, Syracuse, Clabrough, Renette, Abbey, Spencer & Webley- 1 each. Smith: C.M. Grimm, Charles Young, W.B. Leffingwell, Fred Gilbert (Gilbert switched to a Parker after the 1899 GAH), F.P. Stannard, J.J. Sumpter, J.S. Fanning, Fred Quimby, J.J. Hallowell (U.M.C. Co.), “Wanda” and Milt Lindsley, Wanda Shattuck, Fen Cooper, H.C. Hershey (Hazard Powder Co.) Parker: Neaf Apgar, John Parker (Peters Cartridge Co.), Wilbur F. Parker, A.W. duBray, H.D. Kirkover, H.E. Buckwalter, L.W. Stoddard, Harold Money, C.W. Budd, J.D. Gay, George Loomis, O.R. Dickey, Ed Bingham, R. Merrill, C.M. Powers, Howard Ridge (Laflin & Rand Powder Co.) “E.A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23, which was a very nice performance.” Winchester Repeater: J.A.R. & Dave Elliott, Ed Banks (“E.C.” and “Schultze” Powder Co.), Ralph Trimble (WRAC) Cashmore: T.A. Marshall, Dr. W.F. Carver Francotte: Fred Coleman, Paul North (Cleveland Target Co.), J., C., & O. Von Lengerke Remington: R.O. Heikes, Col. A.G. Courtney, Frank Parmelee, B. Le Roy (Remington, DuPont and U.M.C.) E.D. Fulford, George Roll, Captain J.A.H. Dressel (U.M.C. and president of the Interstate Association) Greener: Capt. A.W. Money Baker: “William Crosby, of the Baker Gun Company, made a good showing with his $30 Baker hammerless, killing 24 out of 25 in the big event, and 15 straight in the Nitro handicap. ‘Billy’ made last year’s record with 98 straight kills.” 1899 (and 1897) GAH Winner Thomas Marshall in Leslie's Weekly Illustrated, N.Y., May 4, 1899. Marshall, C.M. Grimm, J.G. Knowlton, J.A. Jackson, S. Hoffman and Geo. Roll (possibly standing behind Marshall and using a Remington Hammerless) all killed 25 birds. Marshall won with 33 birds in the shoot-off after Grimm missed his 32 bird.
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06-20-2018, 09:51 AM | #30 | ||||||
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