Nice English hammer gun. Out of proof?

[Daryl Hallquist]

Maybe we should say that prior to 1925 the 12 over C in a diamond meant chamber length of 3" or longer.

[Drew Hause]

This is a 16g with pre-1925 proof with 2 1/2" chambers



Engelhardt in the 1962 Gun Digest "European Proof Marks, Proof in Great Britain" stated that the 12 over C was not used prior to 1925, which is obviously incorrect, and didn't mention 12 over LC.

I think we can say that gauge over C means "standard chamber length" - 2 1/2" to 3" (after 1925 anyway) and 'LC' means 'long chamber"

[Daryl Hallquist]

With this circa 1900 Greener, maybe the 12 over C in a diamond actually means a chamber length over 2 1/2". We see that mark in guns with 3 1/4" chambers prior to 1925. This 12 over C mark is for 2 3/4" chambers prior to 1925.

[Daryl Hallquist]

a 1925 or later example. Lots of questions , but luckily we have lots of examples.



Can we now say that 12 over C in the diamond, prior to 1925 means a 12 ga chamber that could be anything from 2 1/2" to at least 3 1/4" [probably more] . Then after 1925 the 12 over C in the diamond would be proper for chambers up to, but including , chambers of 3". Then the 12 over LC would be used for longer than 3" and would also be marked with numerical length ?

A later thought is that the gauge over C in the diamond just meant a gun with chambers [any length], Earlier there were centerfires and of course muzzle loaders that did not have chambers, thus the C designation under the gauge .

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Daryl.
The author didn't try to address the C here
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazi...roof-6-london-

Found the 1904 Proof House Revisions in The Gun and Its Development, 1907
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA290
No specific mention of the 12 over C chamber lengths
LC is for chambers "more than 3 inches"



So the 1925 date is incorrect

[Daryl Hallquist]

Good find , Drew, in the 1904 revisions. Longer than 3” seems right for LC. Maybe up until that time. LC did not exist and gauge over C in the diamond could be any chamber length. I think we are making progress.

[Drew Hause]

The 1896 Rules with both C and LC
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4



Rule #22 if for 3" or longer chambers

Rule #40 specifies the 'C' but does not mention chamber length

SO it appears that the Rule was changed for LC in 1904

[Daryl Hallquist]

Drew, how did you decide that the rule for LC was changed in 1904. It seems that the LC you show above is part of the 1896 Rules.

[Drew Hause]

This states under the 1887 - 1896 Rules LC is 3" or longer
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazi...roof-4-london-
I couldn't however find the Rules published

96 - 04 Rules 3" or longer
Rule # 45 refers to Rule #22
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#

04' Rules state LC for is more than 3"