O/U to SxS gun fit advice needed - Page 2

Andy · 12-14-2020, 09:29 PM

I didn’t intend to be nitpicking with the original post. I was just curious if there were general guidelines to use one fitting for both types. I found a beautiful AYA that I loved but it only had about a 16th of an inch of drop between comb and heel I just didn’t think it would work for me so I didn’t buy it. But I think I’m a pretty average person at 5 foot eight and 170 so most guns off-the-shelf fit me except for length of pull tends to be a little bit long. If drop is 3”+ it’s game over for me.

Brett Hoop · 12-15-2020, 02:02 AM

Andy

I hope you don’t think your being nitpicky. These questions lead to information and it’s refreshing, at least to me. I too have chased “fit”. And I have like you, walked away from several because I didn’t know where they would shoot for me. And some I thought were dead nuts right there didn’t shoot where I hoped they would. I agree with much of what has been written above, in that if you shoot a gun enough you will find yourself adjusting.

Your the only one that can know what suits you best. I found out eventually, that I much prefer to float the bird, but with some guns that are lower at the face and heel, I must cover the bird up to do any good. I can make that work for awhile, but when I shoot clays it shows up latter in the round and I drop birds I shouldn’t.
Although I shot side by side guns as a youth, I went about 15 years of successfully shooting O/U guns that were stocked higher and shot at least 60/40 patterns and that lead to what I want to see. I exclusively shoot side by sides now maybe poorly, but it’s what I enjoy.

I wish it were just the stock measurements, because if it was, it would be simple.

If you need any excuses for missing I have those down to where I don’t need to practice in a mirror, wish it wasn’t so with my gun mount.

Ed Norman · 12-15-2020, 06:46 AM

Andy,
My wife got me a gun fitting for my christmas present. I had the initial fit probably 3 weeks ago. The man is very well known in gun fitting circles in the u.s. The first year I hunted with my new bird dog was 3 years ago I used a beretta over under 20 gauge. I shot a lot of grouse and woodcock with that gun. I have since purchased 2 fox and 1 parker 16 gauge shotguns. I have hunted 2 years with the older guns exclusively and have not shot very well at all. My neck is so short that if I put the stock right under my cheekbone, I cannot see the barrel at all with any of my 4 guns. The beretta has a 2" drop at face, the older guns are 2 1/8 or 2 3/16. According to my initial gun fitting I need a minimum drop at face of 1 7/8. If I leave the gunstock barely touching my cheek on the beretta then i can shoot it well. I have to lift my face completely off the stock to see on the older guns. My cheek sets farther down the stock (where its even lower) because my neck is so short. I shot competitive archery years ago and had a high average shooting with fingers, not a release and the one constant you had to have in archery is a good solid anchor point. The gun fitter has try guns that are over under and side by side, and he has several of both. I am 5'8" tall and about 200 pounds since covid started (I quit playing tennis) Most newer guns have a high enough drop at face that I can shoot them quite well, my choice is to wait and find an older gun with the correct drop at face, or shoot a newer gun. Right away the gun fitter told me he would give me the name of a stock builder that could build a stock with the correct drop. He was not trying to sell me a gun, he knows how much I like the old shotguns. I will wait and find an older gun that is similar to my drop in face (it doesnt have to be down to the exact measurement. The gun fitter said 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 and ideal would be 1 13/16. The other problem is barrel regulation, this gun fitter checks his customers barrel regulation now on the gun they shoot. If the customer and fitter go through the process and the customer doesn't shoot better, thats why he checks barrel regulation. I believe I read there are only 3 companies that check barrel regulation before sending a new shotgun out. If you got a gun fitting and one barrel is shooting 8 inches low at 20 yards then thats a problem. I hope this helps, your welcome to message me and I will explain further its easier to talk on phone than type all this

Stan Hillis · 12-15-2020, 08:02 AM

The best way for you to answer the question you asked is to get yourself to a grease plate, or build one yourself if you have a suitable location, like I did. Fitting a shotgun is not magic, and you can do it yourself. Once you get access to a grease plate shoot it a good bit. Don't "squirrel aim" like you would with a rifle, but mount the gun like you would on a bird you want to kill, go to the spot in the center of the plate, and shoot. After several times you will get an idea where the gun is shooting for you. Someone else can shoot the same gun at the plate and have an entirely different point of impact (POI). The goal is, by adjustments to the buittstock (many of which you can make yourself), to get the gun's POI to the same spot as the point of aim (POA).

The first time I ever did this I built the comb up with cardboard and duct tape to get the pattern to about 60/40, which is what I like best for birds or sporting clays. I added length to the pull with an adjustable buttplate I put on the gun. I got it shooting perfectly where I was looking. Not long after, I went with some friends to a Saturday morning gun fitting by a trained pro. He wrote down all the measurements, he said I needed, and I brought them home. I measured the gun I had adjusted and compared the dimensions to what the gun fitter said I needed, and he was spot on. All the measurements were almost exactly the same, with one dimension being maybe 1/8" off. Seems like that was the LOP which, IMO, can be fudged on the most without grave consequences. Point?, gunfitting can be very helpful, but you can do it yourself by trial and error. And, it's not a panacea. If your gun mount is not proper, and consistent, the rest is wasted. Get it right first. OBTW, all the fitting was done with an O/U. Gunfitter said that if I went to a S x S I should adjust one or two measurements slightly. But, it was so little an adjustment that I can't even remember what it was.

The most important dimensions (again, IMO) to have right are the drop at face, and the cast. One will seriously affect the vertical shot placement, one the horizontal.

May I suggest that you spend just a few dollars before doing anything else and order a copy of the book by Rollin Oswald, Stock Fitter's Bible. It is readily available on Amazon, and is worth ten times the asking price to anyone with questions like yours. Oswald absolutely removes the mystery of making a shotgun shoot where it should, in an easy to read, sometimes humorous, style. I wish to goodness I had found it 40 years ago. One more point that Oswald makes in the book ...........adjustment to one dimension often affects what other dimensions should be. Please read the book in the order it is written, front to back. Don't skip around to certain chapters here and there. That is supremely important.

Ed, how much rib you see has more to do with the vertical distance between your cheekbone and your eye than does the length of your neck. Think about it a minute. If you cheek the gun so that the cheekbone is resting just atop the comb the only distance that can affect how much rib you see, or how little, is the vertical distance to your eye. Now, if the drop at face is so "out of whack" that you have to do physical gyrations to get to where you "see the rib" properly, that can certainly affect your mount, and ultimately your shot placement. Having the right drop is how you get the cheekbone to comfortably rest just atop the comb with ease. That is where the neck length comes "into play", but the distance from your cheekbone to your pupil is very important.

Sorry for being wordy, but this is a complicated issue that is not answerable with one liners. It takes time, but it is ultimately worth every bit of time it takes. Most people are happy if they hit 50% of what they shoot at, some even less. I'm not. If you're not ............proper gunfit, however you choose to pursue it, is for you.

Best, SRH

Ed Norman · 12-15-2020, 08:23 AM

well said stan, I gave the "old college try" for 2 years with guns that don't fit closely enough. I knew something was wrong, I do not want to wound birds, I shot a dozen shells at least one day while we moved 20 woodcock, and missed everything. My wife noticed that I wasn't shooting as well either. The one thing the fitter said is if your barrels aren't regulated and shoot low on a rising bird, or clay pigeon, you will never shoot well. My head is so large, when I started shooting again I thought if old guns have more drop, then that should help. Stan your right, its a complicated process which is why I could not or would not type everything here, the fitter gave me a study journal which really explained everything better. What I liked about this fitter is he would go out of his way to help me shoot my old guns better, and he wasn't trying to sell me anything. The other issue I had right off 3 years ago was no line bifocals when I shoot the top part of the frame of my glasses is in the way. The gun fitter now doesn't want a customer to take his shooting school unless they have the right type of glasses. There are also video's online that help explain this process. I did not want to give out the fitters name or video in case I was breaking some rules in here. Thanks again Stan

Big D · 12-15-2020, 10:41 AM

Ed -Your fitter is the same guy who measured my friend in my earlier post.

Regarding S x S versus O/U fitting differences, I had someone try to tell me that the difference is "Barrel Flip". O/U's will tend to have less vertical "flip", becasue there is more mass oriented vertically, whereas a S x S would have less horizontal flip. I think it is all hooey on shotguns. Might be important for bench rest rifle shooters

Phil C · 12-15-2020, 10:59 AM

I can also shoot guns with different dimensions, but I shoot a properly fitted gun much better.
I had a gun fitting with an RBL at Michael Murphy’s. This gun did not fit me and it was obviously clear after a few shots at the patterning plate.
Stock was shortened, and stock bent to increase drop and added come cast on. It’s a real killer on wild birds.
I bought an A-10 later on but failed to have the stock made to the same dimensions as the RBL. Thinking that the A-10 being an O/U would need different measurements. I thought it would be a waste of my money to have the stock built to duplicate the RBL.
Got the A-10 and realized after mounting the gun and shooting it one season it did not fit me.
Had the Turkish walnut stock bent on the A-10 but could not get enough drop. Had the comb worked down and all the measurements very close to the measurements of the RBL and it became a complete different gun in my hands. For me using the same measurements on a SXS and a O/U the fit was the same.
I am sure that most of the major gun manufactures would build your SXS to your requested measurements. Also why many developed Try-Guns.
It’s my opinion Just like other sports a proper bat or golf club makes a difference.

Ed Norman · 12-15-2020, 11:20 AM

John,
I just know for me the fun is in the research, whether its tennis and rackets, shoes etc. archery was the same way. If I do some research and find that something works better for me then "mentally" I am more confident if that makes sense. I would of probably never paid for a gun fitting before. Now after the gun fitter and I talked I realize its the best possible scenario for me. I know some guys that will get a gun custom built to exact dimensions, but gaining or losing weight will change things, extra clothing like was said before etc. I am just trying to find something closer than I have currently, so both sides of an argument like this have their points. I have short arms too, so it will be interesting to see what my l.o.p. is too, and stock cast etc. I hunt with the gun room manager at this place, and he never tried to "sell" me on a gun fitting. Thats what I like about these guys. He put a new stock on an old fox and he loves shooting his old gun now. And he shoots it very well, I don't shoot skeet, or trap or sporting clays. John D. has invited me over, I shoot so bad, its embarassing. I need to practice more and I will get better, but I know now after the initial part of the process this is the best thing that could happen for me. Stan, the way my neck was explained to me also had to do with other things like stock, l.o.p. etc. and I don't know enough to even comment on here. Like you said it can get complicated, I appreciate everyone's point of view, like Brett said this is how we can all learn I am glad Andy posted this.

Andy · 12-15-2020, 11:23 AM

I appreciate all the feedback. I have always believed that the truth in all things lie somewhere between the polar opposite opinions, whether it's the reason for a divorce, politics, or who was the greatest soccer player ever or what is the best gun dog. In this case, I went in sort of believing that the truth with a fitting was somewhere between "It's all garbage" and "You CANNOT shoot properly without a proper fitting." As to the varying advice, I have used a pattern plate and that has helped. I'm unable to adapt to every gun I own, and perhaps I should be that guy that people talk about- "Beware the man with one gun." But I'm not, I like them too much to have only one. Stan I am going to pick up that book, thank you! Brett, I could always use more mounting and move/mount work at home in the basement. Ed, I'm an optometrist and while glasses are always used as an excuse by golfers, shooters have their issues too.

Ed Norman · 12-15-2020, 12:07 PM

The gun fitter has been fitting for about 30 years, he has a whole section about eye dominance, central eye dominance, sitting in front of a computer screen all day can change eye dominance to central etc. If you pm me I will see if I can send the study booklet to you as a gift. I will also try to send you to a website that has a piece by Michael McIntosh about fitting that is on their website. Thanks again this has really been interesting.