Variances in chokes?

[Austin W Hogan]

I am bringing this to the top in support of the call for shell case dimensions that accompanies this post.
Dave, Dean and Larry have measured an unfinished barrel set and found that barrels were initially bored to a full choke contour. Continuing research indicates that the choke contour was often modified, and that forcing cone shape may have been altered to achieve the specified choke.
There are several notes on patterning in The Parker Story, Johnson and Baer. I assimilate them in my mind to conclude that guns were not patterned by counting a 30 inch circle, but by eyeballing a gridded 24 inch square. DuPont bulk smokeless and Tatham No7 shot were used to pattern, unless the customer specified a choice of powder or shot. Many requests were for "as close as can" regarding choke. Guns were often returned to be repatterned and tightened; one must conclude that the original choke taper was modified in this process.
The attached figure shows a magnified contuour of a live bird gun barrel. The plotted points show the difference among several similar barrels that were probable altered to achieve the requested pattern.
Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

We continue to state that a 30" target, or a 24" target, Tatham #7 shot, Dupont Bulk powder, or 40 yards, or 45 yards, or whatever, were the standards or that one combination of the previous was "always" used, when that is not true at all. What combination was used to pattern a certain gun is only the combination that was used on that gun and the only way we know that is to read the order book specifications, which sometimes didn't make it to the finished gun, or the stock book entry, which is the spec for the finished gun, or the original hang tag, which should also be the spec for the finished gun. Guns on the same page of the stock book with the same specifications are often patterned with a different combination of components. Just for an example, my 12 gauge #216,008 was patterned with 1 1/8 ounces of shot and my #216,218 was patterned with 1 1/4 ounces of shot. If we somehow knew the pellet count, it wouldn't mean much unless we knew the weight and size of the load used to shoot the pattern. Early guns were patterned at 40 yards or 45 yards and at a 30" target or a 24" target depending on who knows what. There does not seem to be a standard or a clear cutoff date among various methods.

[Chuck Heald]

After observing all this banter over the yrs on this subject, whether on Parkers or other makes, I've come to the conclusion that when I buy a gun, I simply go by the constriction to form an idea of the performance. And since I shoot a variety of ammunition types, payload weight and shot size, only patterning at whatever distance I find a need for, is truly the bottom line. I don't pattern at "standard" distances, I shoot for effective range for my load and game. I want to know the distance limit for my game-gun-load. Anything else is just 'interesting' to me.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, most people who are tuning in here are interested in the original configuration of their Parker. I don't understand the nitpicking either, but the "original configuration" or original patterning information is often asked for, so I try to share the information I know. When I buy a Parker, I couldn't give a darn how it is choked as long as it will shoot. I would like it to be somewhat original in the bores, but I don't insist on it, especially in the early guns. I request a PGCA letter in the hope that I will get some ownership provenance, but patterning information is often a bonus.

[Mike Stahle]

Originally Posted by Chuck Heald

After observing all this banter over the yrs on this subject, whether on Parkers or other makes, I've come to the conclusion that when I buy a gun, I simply go by the constriction to form an idea of the performance. And since I shoot a variety of ammunition types, payload weight and shot size, only patterning at whatever distance I find a need for, is truly the bottom line. I don't pattern at "standard" distances, I shoot for effective range for my load and game. I want to know the distance limit for my game-gun-load. Anything else is just 'interesting' to me.

Amen Chuck :-)
I am happy with my old girl.
If I do my part, she will do hers even at a 110 yrs. old.
See topic: "Parker First Range Report. (Lots Of Pics.)"

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

What combination was used to pattern a certain gun is only the combination that was used on that gun and the only way we know that is to read the order book specifications, which sometimes didn't make it to the finished gun, or the stock book entry, which is the spec for the finished gun, or the original hang tag, which should also be the spec for the finished gun. Guns on the same page of the stock book with the same specifications are often patterned with a different combination of components.

There does not seem to be a standard or a clear cutoff date among various methods.

So Bill, are we to assume that any gun produced for 'stock' and later to be sold as part of a very large 'stock' order by one of Parker Bros. larger wholesale customers would have been randomly patterned by any number of the various patterning methods in use at the time?
I prefer to believe there was "method" to what otherwise must be seen as "madness".
This may be a bottomless pit...

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I'm sure that any Parker that was patterned with the combination mentioned on the stock book or hang tag entry for the particular gun was actually patterned with the combination of components and range and target mentioned. However, the next gun on the stock book page may have been patterned with a whole different combination of components and ranges and pattern diameter. If you have the stock book info or hang tag, you know how the gun was made. Otherwise, you measure the bores and chokes before you buy the gun and not worry about how close it is to original specs. I buy guns with thick barrels and significant choke and worry about the similarity to the original specs later. I gave one instance of two guns of similar specs being patterned with different shells, even though the serial numbers were only a couple of hundred numbers apart. This is rather common. Measure the bores, write the check. Worry about the details later.

[Dean Romig]

In this particular discussion I'm not concerned with the patterning specs or the choke and bore measurements of a particular gun that I may want to consider buying for myself but more with the uncertain economics of what you're suggesting Parker Bros. did at the gun manufactory. It simply doesn't seem economically feasible that they would randomly pattern this 'stock' gun this way and the next 'stock' gun differently. The man-hours spent in resetting patterning plates from thirty yards out to forty then back again to thirty or thirty-five for the next gun while the guys in the other adjacent patterning tunnels were doing the same thing just can't have been approved by the superintendant. Quite probably there were four or five patterning tunnels each set at a particular yardage but even so, someone still had to give the order to pattern gun "X" at forty yards and gun "Y" at thirty-five. The question, in my mind, remains "Why and How?" I know there probably isn't answer but I can't conceive of it being a random thing. It's a quagmire...

[Dean Romig]

Okay, here's a thought... Guns made for stock were all left in the rack in a state of semi-completion left at full/full until such time as an order came in from a wholesale customer like Simmons Hardware in St. Louis, Mo., for example, for one-hundred, fifty shotguns with pre-specified dimensions, grades, gauge, barrel length and choke or pattern at particular yardages. Then the guns for that order were selected and patterned accordingly. Now that makes sense.

[Austin W Hogan]

I remember several brief passages about methods of patterning including one which implied the old board had been replaced with a new 24 inch board. I would probably spend a week turning pages to reconstruct this.
The conclusion I have drawn is that the barrel department had a grid which was used to pattern. It was probably coated with whitewash between shots. The number of pellets in a sector were counted or estimated, and multiplied by a number to state a pattern.
Returning to the original question; has anyone found any pre 1920 cases?

Best, Austin