Another new member with a question or two...

[Dean Romig]

One thing we never addressed in this entire thread is the frame size of a sixteen gauge VH. It could have been built on the standard 16 ga #1 frame or on the lighter #0 frame. Lengthening the chambers on the #1 frame sixteen is a viable option (though not necessarily desirable) but is ill-advised on a #0 frame sixteen because the the barrels would have been filed considearbly thinner and there is generally just enough metal in the barrel walls at the area of the forcing cones for the short chambers and to lengthen such chambers is to invite disaster.

[TARNATION !!!]

Good observation there Dean.

Back to the 2 3/4 shell in shorter chambers. I was looking at one of Jay Schacter's listings on GB. He made a statement that plastic hulled 2 3/4 can be used in shorter chambers and if you don't know why please ask. So I did. Here is his reply

There have been several well engineered studies of shooting 2 3/4"shells in AMERICAN MADE double shotguns with 2 1/2" or longer chambers. There is no meaningful increase in pressure when shooting plastic hulled 2 3/4" shells in the American doubles that are in good condition. These early American guns were designed when the shotgun shells were paper hulled shells that had much thicker walls than the newer plastic hulled shells. The forcing cones were approximately 5/8" of taper to the bore diameter. As the gun is fired, the crimp of the shell opens into the forcing cone, squeezing the shot charge into the bore diameter. The opened case did not extend beyond the forcing cone. The forcing cone dimensions were designed to accommodate the paper hulled wall thickness as it opened into the forcing cone. Plastic hulls we shoot today are much thinner walled than the paper hulls of yesteryear. As a 2 3/4" plastic hulled shell is fired in a 2 1/2" chamber, the crimp opens up into the forcing cone and allows the shot charge to be squeezed into the bore diameter. Because the 2 3/4" plastic shell, once fired, does not have enough length to actually open into the bore diameter, instead being contained within the forcing cone area, there is no added constriction as the shot charge is reduced to the bore diameter. Because the crimped end of the plastic hulled shell walls are significantly thinner than the paper hulled shell, there is no increase in pressure as the longer shell extends 1/4" farther into the 5/8" or longer forcing cone. This has been mentioned in McIntosh's book "A.H. Fox, 'The Finest Gun in the World" and articles in the magazines SHOOTING SPORTSMEN, and the DOUBLE GUN JOURNAL. Double Gun Journal, Volume 12, Issue 4, Winter 2001 has a lengthy article by Sherman Bell that is quite well done. Its summary after much testing concludes that there is no danger in shooting the 2 3/4" shell in a "healthy" double with 2 1/2" chambers. All that said, I have a wonderful double gun smith that can alter any chamber and forcing cone for $55 per barrel. It does reduce pressure slightly, and reduces recoil, wear and tear on the gun and shooter. I recommend this if the gun is not a highly valued collectible, is more of a shooter/game gun, and the gun will receive a fair volume of shooting, such as a sporting clays gun or a dove gun. Otherwise, for the shooting most Americans get at ducks, grouse, pheasants, quail, etc., the effect just may not be worth the expense. It surely is not necessary for safe shooting or to protect the gun. Hope that this is helpful,

Jay Shachter
Vintage Firearms, Inc.
Always buying nice American Doubles
LET ME SELL YOUR GUNS!!!!
616-292-6240

To be noted he stresses American Made, good condition guns and plastic hulled shotshells

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion Jack, While there is a great deal of truth in Jay's words, his statements are still a generalization and most definitely do not address Parkers or other guns manufactured as "light game guns" such as the 0-frame sixteens and 1-frame twelves that were filed to minimum thickness in the area of the forcing cones.
I have an otherwise "healthy, American made double in good condition" with ring bulges at the forcing cones because someone long before I became the owner of this gun used poor judgement in the ammo he used in this gun - a Parker Bros. 0-frame sixteen gauge with 2 1/2" chambers... further, DSR sayeth naught.

[Don Reed]

.....The gun is a #1 frame. I've been following the discussion here intently. I did order a chamber length gauge as suggested, and I'm not doing anything, if at all, until I find out what I'm dealing with here. Not shooting any 2 3/4 shells, or ordering 2 1/2 ". We'll just wait and see how it checks out. Although I am getting itchy to pull the triggers and feel it, hear it, and smell it.... Thanks to all..... Don.

[Bruce Day]

1921 PHE 16ga. Original 2 9/16" chambers, Lt mod and Mod. 6lbs10oz, 1 frame.

I've put about 10,000 to 15,000 rounds through it of the pictured shells since 1970. Before I got it, my grandfather ran about 20,000 to 30,000 rounds through it. Still tight,lever centers. Shot everything from geese to quail. My grab and go gun.

[TARNATION !!!]

Bruce: Taking the total of the low numbers, I would need 300 or more hunting seasons to use that amount of ammo. The ammo shown is all plastic hull; however, your grandfather would have been shooting in the paper era. Was 2 3/4 paper part of the 20-30000 he passed through this gun?? Great go to gun.

Dean: I have not seen barrels with a full ring bulge but I have seen a gun with barrels that were both approx half ringed beyond the forcing cones. Any thoughts on that type of damage??

[Dean Romig]

Jack, in my opinion, any ring bulge, half-ring bulge or any other kind of bulge forward of the end of the chamber/forcing cone is most likely caused by some kind of obstruction inside the barrel tube.

[Bruce Day]

Paper, plastic, anything that would go in the big end. People talk all the time about 2 3/4" shells. But Feds are the only 16's that are 2 3/4", the others are a little short of that. Same way with 20ga shells. My favorite shells to shoot are the Fed Game shoc loads. Well made, quality product, hard shot and shoot soft and inexpensive. Order them 4-5 cases at a time and they work fine from everything from targets to pheasant and prairie grouse. Shot huns and sharptails with it around Boissevain (south of Brandon) and over to Estevan. Big, open wheat fields, great people and lots of birds. We used to run intercepts with your boys out of RCAF Moose Jaw so I got to fly over all that area.

The heavy, fast magnum loads are hard on the shoulder and I don't shoot them much except for tough pheasant late season. Not something I'd go shoot 100 rounds sporting clays with.

The numbers can pile up when its decent weather and I shoot a couple full rounds of sporting clays in a day.