Purpose of frame sizes...

[Bruce Day]

Brian, for comfortable recoil, heavier loads for heavier guns and vice versa.

All Parkers were proofed and intended to be safely used for the maximum service load for that gauge, an example of which would be 10,500 psi for a 12 ga in the 1920's. When SAAMI standards were established for service and proof loads, Parkers met those also.

If a person wanted a light gun he could comfortably carry all day, that's what he told Parker and Parker chose the frame size to match. If he wanted a gun that he could comfortably shoot 100 rounds of trap, Parker selected frame size for that also. Both guns were built to shoot the same 1 1/8 3 dram load. buyers commonly told Parker the desired weight of their gun in addition to stock dimensions.

Yet, all 12ga Parkers could and likely did shoot anything from 1 oz 2 1/2 dram loads to the max at 1 1/4 oz 3 1/2 dram.

May I suggest you obtain and read The Parker Story, which explains all these matters and more far better.

[Fishtail]

I think all of the above is true...but I also think there were Parker-savvy people back then who knew there were different frame sizes and would/could have requested them. Especially so if they lived near Meriden and had spent their time in the showroom and/or around Parker employees.

This would have been a small percentage of Parker buyer but I'm sure it existed and I'm sure Parker would not have minded someone specifying a given frame size provided it was build-able.

There were others who specified frame size indirectly....'I want a 12 ga just like my brother's SN 123123....'

[OH Osthaus]

Originally Posted by greg conomos

There were others who specified frame size indirectly....'I want a 12 ga just like my brother's SN 123123....'

but would that work if they did not record the frame size in the order books?

[Bill Murphy]

Rick, come over here and sit on Uncle Bill's knee. Rick, there are order books and there are stock books. The order book is kind of a synopsis of how the gun will be configured. It doesn't include every detail, but it does include the buyer's name and a fair description of the gun he wants. The work order cards get very specific, much more than the order book entry, with the smaller details mentioned. The order book very seldom specifies a frame size, but some savvy customers did actually know about frame sizes and those requests very occasionally end up in the order book. On the other hand, the stock book is something different altogether. It's entries include all the details of the finished gun. When the order book entry is made, the gun is not finished, sometimes not even started. The serial number is entered in the order book only after the gun is completed, some weeks or whatever after the original order entry is made. The stock book entry includes all of barrel steel type and length, stock dimensions, finished weight, pattern testing, and yes, the frame size in some eras. As far as duplicating a specific gun, the order book and the stock book entries would probably have been researched to create the second gun. However, in some eras, the frame size would only be a guess, and looking at the gun would be the only reliable source of information. Another missing detail in both the order book and stock book would be the unstruck barrel weight. Only the gun would give that piece of information.

[OH Osthaus]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

Rick, come over here and sit on Uncle Bill's knee. .

now THATS just creepy

but thanks for the history lesson. I have had letters that referenced the order book number, and have included pattern results. But yet to get one with a frame size.

[Bill Murphy]

Rick, "pattern results" will only come from the stock book entry. "Requested patterns" may be mentioned in the order book entry. Mention of frame size is truly rare. I have a DH two barrel set on a #3 frame. The order book entry requests a "2 1/2" frame, which is the width of the #3 frame. This is not the first time I have seen a reference to the 2 1/2 frame. Maybe Chuck Bishop will remember other order book entries specifying frame size.

[Researcher]

So frame sizes were a function of desired weight, and not based on the load intended to be used?

FRame sizes were not just for weight, but also to achieve different balance.

[Pa SxS]

Murphy, I recently did a letter on a gun where the order book requested a 2 1/2 frame. That's the only reference to a frame size I've seen in a order book and one Parker never made (I know never say never!). When I questioned the current owner, he said it was on a size 3 frame so I figured Parker rounded up to the next even size. Off the top of my head, I can't remember who requested the letter. Did the original customer think Parker made a 2 1/2 frame?

[Bill Murphy]

No, the 2 1/2 frame was not a commonly known entity, but obviously, it was a term used among factory people to designate the #3 frame. Whether some retail customers knew about the big frame is doubtful, but the terminology made it to the order books. No one "rounded up" 2 1/2 to 3. The #3 frame is 2 1/2" wide according to the frame dimension chart in The Parker Pages. I have no idea why factory people didn't use the same numbers we do, but they apparently didn't. I also don't know why other frame sizes weren't described in "insider's lingo", but they don't seem to have been, at least in my experience.

[Bill Murphy]

Since frames did not have a frame number stamped on them, the only way a floor mechanic at Parker Brothers could identify a #3 frame was to measure it with whatever measuring device he had in hand. A #3 frame was 2 1/2" wide.