Hemingway's guns

[Stepmac]

Originally Posted by Robert Delk

I can't imagine how anyone could fake out the system they have in place to check you out. I didn't even say anything about ptsd but went in for type 2 diabetes as they think it might be a result of Agent orange. I went to 3 different medical facilities in 3 different cities and it was 6 months before I found out they had decided most of my trouble was PTSD.They checked my medical and psychiatric records,which I was not aware they did, and came up with my evaluation.I can see now that I was "losing it" but my behavior seemed ok at the time,to me only.Anyone that would fake something like this deserves to be given serious prison time. On the up side of ptsd I found that you can stay awake for days at a time and not get tired but the auditory hallucinations were the worst.

Those sound like serious symptoms to me! Hope you are okay...

Another tale. Old squadron mate of mine joined a motorcycle club, all enlisted marines. He was the only officer. All of the men were receiving PTSD payments, each and every one. They told the fellow I knew that he should put in for PTSD too. He figured, hay, it's free money. I was in the Nam (he was an F-4 driver.) So he put in for it. Big mistake. He convinced the medical people that he was infected with the problem, so they gave him some drugs. If you don't have PTSD and you take the drugs for it, you get it. Then the cops took his guns (very nice shotguns), and pilots license.

So, it sounds to me that if one fakes it, it is problematic. But still the two guys who I talked to didn't seem to have experienced anything out of the ordinary, but then again; I'm not them.

Fighting men and women have been suffering from tramma due to military experiences forever. Civil War vets did, so did WWI GI's. Survivors of the death camps did not do well after their release. First it was shell shock, then battle fatigue and now post trammatic stress. If someone has it, it is nothing to be ashamed of. Those who fake it should be jailed. I think some, if not many, do, or try to.

Read an article of an interview of a vet who had seen hard combat. He said, "Yeah, I had issues when I returned, but the first thing you have to do is to stay away from the people who are telling you that you are sick."

You, are much more experienced in this matter than I. I was a zoomie and never experienced the bush. You did. I hope that you are doing well.

[Robert Delk]

I think most of my platoon was in awe of the F4 pilots who escorted the choppers that inserted and extracted us. On rare occasions,I was a radio operator,I had direct contact with the pilots when we had something the artillery couldn't handle.Why anyone in their right mind would attempt to f--- with a fighter plane when they are on the ground in plain sight I cannot imagine,but some of the vc tried.Not wise.I would give anything to get that feeling back when that F4 rolls up out of the valley and comes screaming in 10 feet over your head looking for the bad guys.Awesome doesn't describe it.I can only imagine what it must be like to actually be flying one of those things.

[Stepmac]

Originally Posted by Robert Delk

I think most of my platoon was in awe of the F4 pilots who escorted the choppers that inserted and extracted us. On rare occasions,I was a radio operator,I had direct contact with the pilots when we had something the artillery couldn't handle.Why anyone in their right mind would attempt to f--- with a fighter plane when they are on the ground in plain sight I cannot imagine,but some of the vc tried.Not wise.I would give anything to get that feeling back when that F4 rolls up out of the valley and comes screaming in 10 feet over your head looking for the bad guys.Awesome doesn't describe it.I can only imagine what it must be like to actually be flying one of those things.

Flying the fighter/bombers, everything happened very quickly. Early in the war we flew at 450 kts, (a mile in 6 or 7 seconds)and then picked it up to 500 when the enemy came out with a faster shoulder held (strella)missile. We usually dropped on smoke and seldom saw much of the target. We were truck'n. We often rolled in from 15000 feet maybe 18000 (it has been a while). We were always careful to run in parallel to friendlies. We never ran in toward our troops. The enemy often ran around shooting straight up with their AK's and SKS's. All it took was one round in the wing, which was our fuel tank, to bring us down. Especially with the F-4. My little A-4 could take a lot of hits. I took a few. "doink" sounded like someone hit your bird with a ballpeen hammer.

We were concerned about the guys on the deck. We were marines, so we'd all been through grunt training and many of us served a tour with the grunts as FAC's. I was a FAC airborne for a time.

The chopper guys took the hits. They flew low and slow and had little or no armor. We had some. We were move'n, those guys were doing 130 knots. Zu 23's were hard on choppers.

Well, it's over and now we've had several more wars and ours has pretty much been forgotten. We are old men. I'm just sorry that a lot of my buddies couldn't be old men too.

[Robert Delk]

Yeah, the adrenalin really starts pumping when you're sitting in a chopper and they start shooting her up. I remember coming back to Danang about 20 feet off the ground,barely airborne with the smoke coming out of the chopper. My buddy said he could hardly see it when it landed at Camp Reasoner chopper pad.I'll take my chances on the ground,thank you and leave the flying to smarter and braver men. I was going to say "crazy' but that wouldn't really describe what it takes to be a pilot in combat.Sometimes I still have dreams that I'm falling out of the chopper.I come out of bed wide awake!

[George Lander]

I once had the opportunity with several others to talk with Carlos Hathcock. Someone asked him if he had nightmares over some of the things that he saw and did. I believe that his response was something along the lines of: "Combat affects differerent people in different ways. I saw my job as just that, a job. If I took somebody out I looked on it as well: He won't be able to hurt any of our guys anymore." I guess different people have different levels of tolerance to things that happen in combat. One of my best friends was an Air Police Officer in a place called Phu Kat. A mortar round blasted his observation tower out from under him & he took a pretty good hit. He's now the same guy that I knew before Nam although he doesn't like to talk about the war very much.
Different Strokes for Different Folks, I guess.

Best Regards, George

[Stepmac]

Originally Posted by George Lander

I once had the opportunity with several others to talk with Carlos Hathcock. Someone asked him if he had nightmares over some of the things that he saw and did. I believe that his response was something along the lines of: "Combat affects differerent people in different ways. I saw my job as just that, a job. If I took somebody out I looked on it as well: He won't be able to hurt any of our guys anymore." I guess different people have different levels of tolerance to things that happen in combat. One of my best friends was an Air Police Officer in a place called Phu Kat. A mortar round blasted his observation tower out from under him & he took a pretty good hit. He's now the same guy that I knew before Nam although he doesn't like to talk about the war very much.
Different Strokes for Different Folks, I guess.

Best Regards, George

I know people who knew Gunny Hathcock, but I never met him. I think he is in that great rifle range in the sky. Gone maybe three/four years.

[Robert Delk]

I think I am ok with the death of combatants but the unnecessary deaths of civilians was something that came back to haunt me. It seems many times that the focus on was killing a vc or vcs and too bad for whoever else happened to be around. I don't think the killing of one enemy is worth killing/maiming any civilians. Both sides lost sight of that.I remember a high profile target(1 man) that was targeted after he had entered a village and the ok was given to drop artillery on that village until they were sure they got him.His body was not found when they entered the village sometime later but the villagers took casulties.

[Stepmac]

Originally Posted by Robert Delk

I think I am ok with the death of combatants but the unnecessary deaths of civilians was something that came back to haunt me. It seems many times that the focus on was killing a vc or vcs and too bad for whoever else happened to be around. I don't think the killing of one enemy is worth killing/maiming any civilians. Both sides lost sight of that.I remember a high profile target(1 man) that was targeted after he had entered a village and the ok was given to drop artillery on that village until they were sure they got him.His body was not found when they entered the village sometime later but the villagers took casulties.

The ROE today rules out such attacks, least I think so. I recall when Lt Calley was arrested. There were a lot of flight instructors who were very nervous (I was still in the Training Command.) Seeking humanity in war is usually a lost cause.

[Andy Kelley]

Robert I was very lucky in that we mostly engaged NVA infantry troops coming in from Cambodia who had bugles flags etc. No civilians in the area and we were usually totally isolated...Terrain very mountainous and many times had food ,ammunition dropped in by parachute.....crazy the things you do when you are young. Once during rainy season I was convinced we were going to be over run and I had said goodbye to the other American with me and prayed like I never had before or since. I guess someone was listening

[Stepmac]

Just this last minute I finished reading The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber and I am still reeling. Whew! Strange ending and something very Hemingwayesk. Of course he fashioned himself as the white hunter and of course the damsel was all over him. That story needs some discussion...

The Francis Macomber character must have been a compilation of several men and frankly I'd not like to be any of them.