parker collection for sale

[ed good]

well mike, think about it...what do you do with a shotgun with a ruined receiver?

you part it out...and destroy the evidence of your failure.

if you looked on gunsamerica, you will notice that i have several parkers for sale with two sets of barrels, usually with one set of barrels numbered to the receiver and the other set numbered to a different receiver...ever wonder where all those extra sets of barrels came from?

[edgarspencer]

Originally Posted by ed good

well mike, think about it...what do you do with a shotgun with a ruined receiver?

Depending on the nature of the reason you're calling it ruined, you can V it out and TIG it back up.

Originally Posted by ed good

you part it out...and destroy the evidence of your failure.

Naive, Ed. A scrupulous person would save it.

Originally Posted by ed good

if you looked on gunsamerica, you will notice that i have several parkers for sale with two sets of barrels, usually with one set of barrels numbered to the receiver and the other set numbered to a different receiver...ever wonder where all those extra sets of barrels came from?

The answer to that question should be obvious to an old time gun dealer like you Ed. All the past bad press that damascus and twist barrels got, meant those who drank that cool-aid had them re barreled, either at Parker, or, later on, by most good gunsmiths. Certainly if you're implying all those barrels came from guns whose frames were ruined by re-heat treatment, you are struggling to make your case.

[Ruff Hunter]

Why would one simply assume that a hairline crack(s) in a frame was the result of the case coloring process? Perhaps it was case colored in an effort to conceal an existing fracture. Perhaps it cracked due to some form of abuse or preexisting defect in the steel. Without a lot more evidence to prove a causal connection, it would seem reckless to leap to that conclusion....much like concluding that a burst damascus barrel was the result of an inherent inferiority in damascus, without exploring whether it was actually caused by a barrel obstruction, overloaded shell, deep dent, etc.

[ed good]

edgar: over the years, my customers and myself have obtained parker barrel sets from a variety of different sources. those barrel sets include those made of twist, damascus and fluid steel. logic says some of those barrel sets came from guns with ruined receivers...

as for rebarrelling parkers, the common practice was/is to cut off the old barrels and then sleeve the existing breeches with new fluid steel tubes; and then relay the original ribs.

as for tig welding, two reasons it was not done? tig welding is a relatively new process? and why put money into welding a damaged receiver when it will likely crack again in a different place?

maybe we should just follow mike's lead and pretend there is no problem with rehardening old shotgun receivers and therefore, myself and others are just making it all up? but then, didn't king just tell us the following:

"I asked one of North America's best gunsmiths about cc a minty Sterlingworth. He said don't do it because of the risk. I act on advice when I'm paying an expert to do my thinking for me. "

[ed good]

so justin, us anti re case hardening quys are just makin it all up? have you ever re case hardened a shotgun receiver? if so, have you ever had one go bad? have you ever seen one that went bad?

[edgarspencer]

Tig welding (GTAW, Gas Tungsten Arc Welding) is not a new process, and was developed in the 1940s. Good gas welding was pretty much made obsolete by GTAW, but how many airframes were gas welded prior to that? I daresay, in the hands of a good gas welder with an AB torch and proper filler material, most gun frame cracks can be repaired and re-heat treated.
Cracks most often propagate from a localized stress riser. A crack which shows up after case hardening likely existed prior to that heat treatment, but opened up on heat treatment. Secondary cracking from welding usually shows up in the HAZ (heat affected zone, between base and weld metal), and is directly related to either impurities, or inclusions in the weld (gas, slag) or improper post-weld heat treatment.
Welding is a normal process in manufacturing of steel and steel products. Entire departments in companies like Electric Boat, are devoted to developing weld procedures and procedure qualifications. If it were such a risky process, I doubt we would build submarines from rolled and welded rings, 44' (Ohio Class Trident) in diameter, and welded together to make a tube called the pressure hull.
If my customers were as skeptical of welding as you seem to be, I sincerely doubt I would have been able to pawn off $10 million worth of castings a year.
I'll buy every cracked high grade Parker frame you can lay your hands on. You can throw in all those cracked Winchester lever frames while you're at it.
Oh My god, you mean they weld new barrels into old breech blocks? Don't they blow up?

[edgarspencer]

King, that must have been pretty traumatic, if not outright scary. If you want to pursue re-caseing your Fox, I'd suggest you speak to some of the other respected gunsmiths who are doing this process. I wouldn't roll over on only one person's say-so.
Destry, If I weren't house-bound, I would have tired of this a long time ago also, and as it is, getting a little weary swatting a myths and urban legends. If I have to say so myself, I have far too many years working with steels and most of their subsequent manufacturing operations to know what a qualified person is able to do. I also know what can happen in the hands of some who are not so qualified. As is usually the case, the failures get lots of press, but the men who know their stuff just keep doing what they're doing, quite simply, because success breeds more business.

[King Brown]

edgarspencer: it was a 1926 Fox Sterlingworth of benchmark condition by which all all others could be measured. John Mann got it for me. All original, flawless.

During a capsize a week before Christmas 200 metres from shore an hour before daylight in a driving snowstorm, it went six fathoms to the bottom in the North Atlantic.

Nick Makinson restored it to all its glory after immersion in its plastic case for six months. He advised against colouring because risk outweighed benefits.

Anyone who has seen his work would take his word for it.

[Ruff Hunter]

Ed,
Others on this site might accuse you of "just makin it up", but I did not. I simply suggested that you (and others) might be leaping to unwarranted conclusions without considering all the potential variables. And yes, I have case color hardened several vintage frames without any problems with warpage or cracking, which is not to suggest that it could never happen. Every restorative procedure has its inherent risks, and color case hardening is no exception. I would say though, that if one is going to undertake case color restoration, it should be done right; and that means bone charcoal case color hardening. A vintage gun is far better off left rusty and pitted than ruined by the lazy profiteers' torch. But that's just my opinion, of course.

[MarketHunter]

You guys must not read DoubleGunShop much. If you keep talking to Ed this thread will just go on and one and on and on and on and on and on.......