Steel Shot in Parkers

[Autumn Daze]

I read Rosters article yesterday. It was good information but in the back of my head I kept hearing "good info for the over/under and autoloader guy's". I really think Tom was relating this info for modern guns and he qualifies this with his last paragraph that Dean mentions. Also Mr. Roster makes it very obvious that he is very proud of the steel shotcup wads that"he designed".

As we all know sporting writers of years gone by and also current ones are "Infuenced" by the sporting industry. I'm by no means saying bad info would be put out there by these people but let's face it"it's all about money".

[Bruce Day]

The gun community is rather small and all these guys know each other . I'm sure the gun manufacturers would rather that we all buy their latest carbon fiber space age wonder gun and not even try to shoot the vintage guns. Our issue is how to deal with using the old guns in a modern environment and where we have no lead shooting ranges becoming more prevalent. A buddy in Mass called me yesterday and was talking about many of the trap and sporting clay ranges there were going to no lead. 100 rounds of costly bismuth on a weekly basis if you want to shoot an old Parker isn't a very good alternative, at least for me. At $2 per shot, shells alone are $200, so then a round of clays costs $230. If there is a way we can shoot cheaper steel through an old Parker then I think we ought to investigate and figure out how it can be done it instead of dismissing it out of hand, I know I personally will look into it Our local ranges are all OK for lead but I like to travel and some of the places I like to go are no lead. I personally do not own a single modern gun, my newest one is a 1968 Superposed 20.

Maybe Roster should be proud of the steel shotcup. Why not? Early steel shotshells had a barrel bore erosion problem and the latest generation shotcups designed by Roster for Rem and others are supposed to have solved that problem. I have an old chopped Browning auto barrel , known for being soft, and another couple PGCA readers and I were talking about some sort of verification test.....shoot a thousand rounds of steel shot through it and see what happens. The trouble is all I have is a bore gauge, I have no means to measure shinyness before and after, and I don't really want to spend the money on a thousand rounds of steel. I don't know what testing protocol would be acceptable to people. The manufacturers don't want to look into it, they just want to sell you a new gun.

[Opening Day]

Bruce again, I say what you do is fine, what I do is fine, But to come on a public forum and state it's ok to shoot "Steel Shot" when you have newbe's out there reading that's it's ok and they go to Wally World or find some cheap steel shot at a gunshow that's not ok...! Please state what can happen, and yes I have seen that (may not happen but... like shooting a gun with 15 thousandth's probably safe but......) and also look at the PGCA and what harm you may cause us... Just a thought.

[Bruce Day]

OK Eric, I respect your opinions and you know your guns.

In the broad sense, anybody should be thinking about what they shoot. Know the chamber pressures your gun was designed for, know your barrels, know the chokes and shot size that is appropriate for them, know the shot cups and shot hardness relation. I would not go so far that some do and say to never shoot steel in a vintage gun. I kind of like learning about this and I realize that for some, they have no interest or its too complicated for them.

And you do have a point. I should not suggest shooting any kind of controversial load unless a person thinks about it and deals with the issues, which are more complicated than a quick answer.

Best you,
Bruce

[Bindlestiff]

Bruce, you keep taking shots at FAQ's because we don't address steel shot or other issues that you find dear to your heart. I don't know what an FAQ on this topic will do for you? We have pages upon pages on this forum discussing the topic and a simple FAQ isn't going to resolve anything any better that here; and in my opinion, NOTHING has been resolved here. What would you have me add to the FAQ's?

I went to the Winchester site to see what they had to say and their advice is:

"Winchester steel loads can be fired in shotguns of modern manufacture. It is recommended that steel be fired only in shotguns with no more restriction than an improved modified choke."

So, even they are soft on the issue.... "modern manufacture", whatever that decodes to in a court of law? My opinion is that Parker shotguns are not modern manufacture except in the eyes of the ATF.

I have added all the FAQ's found on this site and have been careful not to post one that could get someone hurt. This topic falls into that realm and "I" will not be posting a FAQ on the use of steel shot in a Parker unless it states something along the line of "never shoot steel shot in a Parker".

If anyone sees an FAQ that is wrong, let me know and I will fix it; if anyone sees a FAQ that could cause someone, anyone, to be harmed, let me know and it is gone, deleted, removed,...; if you think these standards for FAQ's are wrong, let me know and I will have my access to FAQ's removed and someone else can do it. I will always error on the side of safety.

I agree with Eric that to post opinions to a public forum where the uninformed reader takes an opinion as fact can be a big mistake. And the FAQ page may have more authority to the novice than this thread, so care must be taken when adding one to insure it can't lead to an accident of any kind.

[CSL]

I think Robin's recent post (attached-below) pretty much encapsulated the whole damn thing, and any further rehashing beyond this point is just cycling in circles... When intelligent people read this thread for reference they can draw their own conclusions and ultimately make their own informed decisions... My vote remains the same, No steel shot in any of my vintage doubles, why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...

Best, CSL
_____________________________

.

Originally Posted by Robin Lewis

Bruce, you keep taking shots at FAQ's because we don't address steel shot or other issues that you find dear to your heart. I don't know what an FAQ on this topic will do for you? We have pages upon pages on this forum discussing the topic and a simple FAQ isn't going to resolve anything any better that here; and in my opinion, NOTHING has been resolved here. What would you have me add to the FAQ's?

I went to the Winchester site to see what they had to say and their advice is:

"Winchester steel loads can be fired in shotguns of modern manufacture. It is recommended that steel be fired only in shotguns with no more restriction than an improved modified choke."

So, even they are soft on the issue.... "modern manufacture", whatever that decodes to in a court of law? My opinion is that Parker shotguns are not modern manufacture except in the eyes of the ATF.

I have added all the FAQ's found on this site and have been careful not to post one that could get someone hurt. This topic falls into that realm and "I" will not be posting a FAQ on the use of steel shot in a Parker unless it states something along the line of "never shoot steel shot in a Parker".

If anyone sees an FAQ that is wrong, let me know and I will fix it; if anyone sees a FAQ that could cause someone, anyone, to be harmed, let me know and it is gone, deleted, removed,...; if you think these standards for FAQ's are wrong, let me know and I will have my access to FAQ's removed and someone else can do it. I will always error on the side of safety.

I agree with Eric that to post opinions to a public forum where the uninformed reader takes an opinion as fact can be a big mistake. And the FAQ page may have more authority to the novice than this thread, so care must be taken when adding one to insure it can't lead to an accident of any kind.

.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Christopher Lien

why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...

I don't want to shoot steel through a Parker, I hope never to do so. However I enjoy using them in high volume activities such as crow hunting and thousands of rounds a year on clay pigeons. Non-Toxic shot has been mandated for waterfowling for 20 years, no economical non-tox shot for doubles has come along suggesting it never will. I believe a total lead ban will happen in my lifetime. It will not come all at once, it will be incremental and it has already started. Just this year the non-toxic mandate was extended to shooting various species on a federal depredation permit. A local skeet range just went non-tox. I am keeping an open mind because some sad day I believe I will have no alternative other than steel shot if I want to use a Parker they way I have come to enjoy them. I hope a couple of people take a sturdy "beater" and shoot the hell out of it with steel shot and report what happens.

[Bruce Day]

Francis, yes I also shoot steel in the old Mod 1912 and have noticed NO barrel streaking . But I am not a fervent duck hunter and only go out a few times a season . I let out the full choke to mod when steel came in.

Robin, the FAQ s are yours, have at them , and I deleted the post. Not my business at all and I will say no more about them. Frankly, this whole thread should be deleted and I would if I could. John, can you delete this whole damn thing. This whole thing is just a mess and there are too many opinions to discuss it.

This thing was rotating and trying to drop all the way down yesterday, and I got by it. So let us let the whole damn thread blow over like this one did.

[John D.]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

.....John, can you delete this whole damn thing. This whole thing is just a mess and there are too many opinions to discuss it. ....

There certainly ARE a lot of opinions - mine included - included a "sidetrack" with Chris and myself - but... But...

BUT - there are a few who have contributed some good opinions and analysis. Drew, Bill, Eric, John Davis, yourself - just to name a few of the several...

If this thread gets "out if hand" I can and will delete it. Between now and then, though..??

Let's let it stand and see what folks have to say - as was the original intent of the original post.

Just from my end of the telescope,

John

[J.B. Books]

I think what we need is some practical testing. Surely there must be a sound Trojan or VH 2 frame 12ga someone has that could in a worst case scenario be sacraficed. Spend the year shooting the hell out of it with steel shot at clays and see what happens. I rather much doubt there is any danger to eyes or limbs. Barrel scoring not likely, maybe bulging in the choke area but how many shots would it take, thousands would be my guess and probably more than most will ever shoot. I suspect the high velocity of off the shelf steel loads combined with the higher pressures will stress old wood but handloaders might be able to tame them down a bit. Back in the early 90's I shot a Miruko Daly o/u 20ga F/M 3" steel 3's and 4's. Guess what, dead ducks, gun is fine. Sherman Bell proved his hunch by testing, the same thing will need to be done here, but the kind of testing we need will mean shooting thousands of rounds, it won't be quick. Nobody should think shooting steel shot in a Parker is OK, but then again maybe with the right loads and chokes it is no big deal. Again nobody should do it without understanding they are putting their gun at risk, but until there has been some extensive testing we would do well to keep a skeptical but open mind.