Re: 1st year Elsie Fulton gun

[Lloyd McKissick]

Have you ever owned a gun just because you think it's pretty?

Before this one, I would have never considered it (far too impractical!). But...times change and like it or not you do along with them. I'll shoot it at Vintager events and drag it out to show it off occasionally (to American gun aficionados). It's far-more Syracuse than Fulton, but it has the angled breech balls of the later guns and it also has the "Double-dog Buttplate" that was only used for about 2-years.

1890 Quality 2 (transitional) 12-bore with it's accompanying letter from Mr. James Stubbendieck...




Even just a few years later, all the Elsies had wider and totally "flat" bottoms. Look at the size of those bolsters, which run way back into the stock head (almost past the 2nd trigger). The base of this action is noticeably narrower than all the later guns. They seem "blocky" by comparison.


The 2-piece top strap and the "Big Window" 3-position (automatic or not) safety, along with the early "dip-edged" lock plate. The firing pins are also "bushed" for easier service & repair.


The very last year for the "square" barrel lug (all were rounded on the front starting in 1891) and look at that forend escutcheon, only the Syracuse guns had these.



Very nice English walnut with 22-lpi checkering. Note that the 2 lower-tang screw heads (only 1 by 1914) are rounded, as is the lock plate screw on the other side. All the frame and tang screw heads were flattened after 1892.


The breech-balls were more-pronounced (more fully rounded) on all the Syracuse guns. These early guns also had a "stop-check" system that let the barrels open much further (to facilitate better access to the tubes for loading & unloading).


A "gutta percha" grip cap and a matching "Double-dog" butt plate. A very short-lived option.

Manufacturing was "streamlined" for ease-of-production after this start-up year at Fulton, and all the Hunter Arms guns that followed (almost half a million of them) looked very different from this one. These early guns were very-much made in a "master & apprentice" fashion, but after the Hunter Brother's (then much-vaunted) "re-designs" began occurring, that process was slowly replaced. Hand-fitting of the guns became ever-more rare over time and then only on the more "graded" and special-order firearms.

After the "big" re-design of 1913, quality noticeably suffered. It is reportedly then that American walnut replaced the English walnut used up until that time, and the infamous "stock cracking" problems began to crop-up. These accumulated "sins of mass-production" became readily-apparent to anybody paying attention by the early 1940s, and those "sins" continue to haunt the once-stellar reputation of these guns to this day.

[Stepmac]

Are you kidding? I marry women and buy shotguns because I think they are pretty. So far I'm doing pretty well with each.

[Lloyd McKissick]

The human male animal is visually stimulated so I guess it's only natural, eh?

[Bill Murphy]

Lloyd, a great description of a great gun. The best buttplate ever on an American gun. My Grade 1 buttplate is untouched, the rest of the gun, touched.

[Researcher]

That was a commercially available butt plate back in the day and has been seen on several different makes of American guns. The one that immediately springs to mind is the C. William Haywood Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox E-Grade, The Double Gun Journal, Volume Two, Issue 1, page 100.

[Lloyd McKissick]

Dave: That makes sense as the Hunter Brothers were standing up a whole new company (after carting everything down from Syracuse in 1888-9). The original LC Smith buttplates wouldn't work and a new one had yet to be developed.

[WHO]

After reading this thread, It got me thinking of a similar gun I bought for the same reason as the OP. I believe this gun was produced in 1890 but it has a different butt plate, doesn't have the forearm escutcheon and has the larger breech balls. This gun is a Quality 3 with 10 gauge 30" barrels.

[Lloyd McKissick]

WHO: That looks to be a Syracuse Smith through and through. The breech balls are a dead giveaway and the square barrel lug (with the heavy frame bolsters) confirms it.

I can't exactly make out what it says on the top rib but it appears to say that it's from Syracuse NY. It also looks to be in very good original condition. From my reading there were some later guns made in Syracuse after the sale to the Hunters in 1888. The folks at the LC Smith webpage can give you a better sense of the build date but I'd think it was earlier than 1890.

[WHO]

Lloyd, if you double click (or double tap if you are on a phone) on the photo, it enlarges and helps to see finer details. The rib is engraved " L C Smith Maker Syracuse NY Damascus Steel". You might be correct that the gun is earlier than 1890 since the serial number is 16xxx. Not sure if the early Smith serial numbers were in numerical order.
Wayne

[Lloyd McKissick]

Mr. David Williamson has created the only serial number database extant for these Syracuse guns. He's a feature on the LC Smith webpage (as well as on as the Doublegun BBS) and he could likely get you fairly close to deciphering your gun's build date (from 1886 to 1888/9).

As you can also maybe surmise, not many Syracuse guns were made (when compared to all the production that flowed from Fulton) and as you might also expect, owning a true "Syracuse Elsie" (especially one as nice as yours seems to be) would be considered something of a "prized possession" by many of the good folks over on the Elsie webpage.

My 1890 Quality 2 gun is simply not viewed (by many of those dedicated souls) as being a "true" Syracuse gun, even though nearly-all of it's components were sourced from that much-vaunted location (I, of course, consider it as merely being the best of both of those worlds and a 1-year only "exotic").

My opinion of this is further supported by the author of the voluminous (& fairly recent) LC Smith table book, the late-great John Houchins (The Legend Lives) where he counts all of the "transitional gun" production at Fulton (1890 thru 1892-3) in with the earlier Syracuse guns.