Why is a 12 ga Parker a "boat anchor" these days?

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by Rick Riddell

Stick around and help keep this alive, you'll get to know the ones to avoid and you'll see some of the same attitude from the same people on other sites, so it's just not here. I've seen a good number up and leave due to a few here, hate to see it happen! There are some really good guys here.

Sure, every site has folks on it with attitudes. However, I have to say this site takes the cake when it comes to bad attitudes. I wonder how many folks have been driven away over the years because of it. Every person interested in Parkers drives up demand and a potential increase in sale price when one wishes to sell their rusty relics in order to fund their retirement. Why, then, discourage it?

Being completely closed minded when I present a point of view with evidence to prove it and then being told to "go away" when other forum members are proven to be wrong is not exactly a warm welcome.

But I intend to stick around. I have thick skin...

[edgarspencer]

Being completely closed minded when I present a point of view with evidence to prove it and then being told to "go away" when other forum members are proven to be wrong is not exactly a warm welcome.

But I intend to stick around. I have thick skin...

Ian, Running back to a Winchester site, and soliciting ONE responce doesn't PROVE anything. Bona fide sales, and auction results is a much better indicator of relative value. Keep in mind, 1898 was an arbitrary date chosen when the 1968 GCA was implimented. There is no one particular relationship in guns manufactured prior to, or after that date. Colt had very many fewer changes to existing models, and the first generation SAA ran for 25 years prior to, and 45 years after 1898. There are lots of 2nd gen guns bringing more than first gen guns (Buyer trends and whimsy?)
Lots of Special Order feature from Winchester didn't come out until after 1898.
I will grant that many people get an attitude towards government, big brother, when it comes to going on record (4473,etc) buying a gun, but buying a gun without paperwork doesn't impart any additional quality to the gun, making the GUN more valuable, only a value to your individual preference. No different than buying a gun from a guy down the road because you didn't have to go to the other side of town, using more gas.
Do some more homework and the C&R license. It makes life much simpler, even for the casual collector. There aren't many 50 year old guns that concern the BATF guys anyway.
I won't argue that I can get my back up, just like guys on any forum. I haven't spent two minutes on the Winny forums in years, partly because they have as many opinionated people as any other site, and partly because, despite accumulating a lot of Winchesters, they don't get my juices flowing like a nice Parker (12,28, hammer or hammerless). I collect the Parkers, Colts and Winchesters, because they are Connecticut guns. Not a coincidence that those three makes have far fewer swings in value, and overall, always trend upward, some moreso than others.
I'm glad you're sticking around. You wound me up right from the getgo by using words like Gospel, Definitely, like your statement is cast in stone. I don't give two shits what you think about old people, but we were young once, but you haven't been old yet.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by edgarspencer

Ian, Running back to a Winchester site, and soliciting ONE responce doesn't PROVE anything. Bona fide sales, and auction results is a much better indicator of relative value.

Well, you are obviously set in your ways! The easiest way to quickly confirm my hypothesis was to create that thread on the Winchester Forum. Multiple publications confirm this as do threads on the Colt forum as well. A comparison of recent auction sales, although time consuming, would likely prove the same.

Maybe shotguns are different. Purdeys are often refinished and not scorned, maybe Winchesters and Colts are different than Parkers.

I did some research about the Gun Control Act of 1968 previously. I had previously believed that in 1968, 70 years was determined to be antique, leading to the question of why wouldn't a 1950 production gun be an antique today. It has nothing to do with age but rather capability. The Mauser 1898 action was deemed "modern", but, due to a clerical error, the cutoff was 01 Jan 1899 and not 01 Jan 1898, gaining an extra year of antique status.

Makes sense. Someday an AR 15 will be 70 or 100 years old and they ain't exactly quaint.

[C.O.B.]

You started off comparing a Fox Sterlingworth to an Ithaca 5E as far as price goes. Thats an apple to oranges comparison.
The gun market as a whole is in a slump not just 12 ga guns. I have a BHE live bird gun thats been for sale with a reputable dealer for a long time as well as an upgraded Parker A1 special 28ga two barrel set. I was going to take both guns back at the Southern, then The NE shoot but as both have been cancelled I'll wait a while longer as I hate shipping guns.

I wouldn't pay $2500 for a GHE 12 when a gun such as Craigs DH can be had for less. FWIW I know Craig and he's an honest fellow who sells a gun for an honest price. If you want the gun your friend has my suggestion is take a fifith of his favorite beverage and when it's about half gone ask to see the gun, start haggling price and walk away with it if it's what you want.

[edgarspencer]

Well, you are obviously set in your ways!

I am, and have a pretty good library of experieces in order to rule out what doesn't appeal to me. Ya get that with age.(And NOT being an Alligator; ALL mouth, and NO ears) I've done the English smoothbores, and double rifles, the German combination guns, and quite a few military guns. It came down to the Wichesters, Colt, and Parkers. All the rest was fluff.

The easiest way to quickly confirm my hypothesis was to create that thread on the Winchester Forum.

I think a sampling of one is not really what they call statistical analysis, but this running back and forth between here and the WACA forum is entertaining

Multiple publications confirm this as do threads on the Colt forum as well. A comparison of recent auction sales, although time consuming, would likely prove the same.

I'm sure you can find publications that support your opinion. I see lots of opinions on Parkers, right here. Much of them are personal, and somewhat supportive of their own belief their collection is "worth" a certain amount. When it's all said and done, what they actually trade hands for is the only real test. Same holds true at auctions, and all you have to do is look at the recent past of Morphy and Julia auction liquidating the Petersen collection and several other large collections. There were some beautiful 1873 & 1876 guns, pre '98, but there were many more of his guns bringing high 5, and 6 figures that were made in the 20th century. I have years worth of their catalogs, but only because they're too pretty to throw out.

I did some research about the Gun Control Act of 1968 previously. I had previously believed that in 1968, 70 years was determined to be antique, leading to the question of why wouldn't a 1950 production gun be an antique today.

That's a very good question, but don't ever confuse people who write these things with someone who actually knows stuff.If I'm not mistaken, there was no C&R license category in 1968, so a gun was either modern, or antique Why is the C&R cutoff 50years and not 70?

It has nothing to do with age but rather capability. The Mauser 1898 action was deemed "modern", but, due to a clerical error, the cutoff was 01 Jan 1899 and not 01 Jan 1898, gaining an extra year of antique status.

There is a very extensive document defining what is "Modern", C&R Eligible, and "Antique". It's available from BATF. Especially useful in these days of toilet paper shortages. Guns are categorized, not just by their model number, i.e. 1898 Mauser, but also by year of manufacture.

Someday an AR 15 will be 70 or 100 years old and they ain't exactly quaint.

The AR-15, and M-16 first came out well over 50 years ago, and AR-15s are C&R. The M-16 can be C&R qualified, but further controlled by NFA, so C&R eligible is irrelevant . Individual states may ban them but that doesn't alter their BATF designation.
Despite this deep and lasting friendship we've developed, this is my last comment on the subject as the thread has gone way off the rails.

[BRDHNTR]

Edgar, you have a wonderful way with words. Thank you.
Ian, stick around. Life with Parkers only gets more interesting.

[Craig Larter]

Ian gun collecting is more than a dollars and cents endeavor in my opinion. It is a passion with many personal twists and turns, likes and dislikes. Much like acquiring art one man's beauty is another man's dislike. I would say 99 percent of the forum members are passionate Parker collectors and price is a consideration but not their primary concern. We aren't trading stocks, we are passionate gun art collectors. Many of us have way over paid the market price to obtain an example that satisfies our passion. We're not concerned about future returns, the satisfaction we get from living with and using these fine guns is our compensation. I am a baby boom generation guy and I am uncomfortable with the edgy dialogue that seems to be the status quo with the younger generation. Many seem to know everything and dismissive of grey haired people. I think the best approach is always to tone down the dialogue.

[Milton C Starr]

I dont think its fair to assume all the older members here who can collect nicer Parkers as rich snobs . I have seen this assumption before when it comes to expensive doubles in general . I have met many financially successful old fellows when I did quail hunts . Most were courteous and down to earth people . The old man who let me shoot his Purdey was as well and seemed excited someone took a interest in it .

Being 27 though I have realized alot of my generation expects to start out with everything , a nice house , fancy cars and whatever whims having wealth provides .
From my perspective though you build up to that over years of good fortune and a level head .

[BRDHNTR]

Amen to this post.

[Dean Weber]

According to this thread, we the association, judge people by a number of socio-economic indicators so I will be transparent so we don't have to discuss whether I am young, old, or a snob. I will be 55 in a few weeks and I have exchanged tens of thousands of dollars with my esteemed fellow members. Yet, I am not independently wealthy and have much to learn from all of you.

I am also a new member who has looked for years without committing and rarely posting. Why, you might ask? The answer is complex, but this thread is a good indicator. I do not absolve Mr. Bojangles for his part in this discussion, but it appears to me we have implemented a mob mentality within this thread (this is not the first time). We have also gone so far as to tell Mr. Bojangles he is not welcome. I am embarrassed by this thread.

When I think of a Parker, I think of a gentleman. Perhaps, we as a society have lost decorum. However, we as an association do not have to succumb to the age of using a keyboard to engage in a conflict and bicker over semantics. I challenge us to be better than this.
Best,
Dean Weber