Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Cold Spring]

Ed, I've been trying to figure out a way to do that without making it easy for others to duplicate once they get a super good copy of all 22 shooters or of one of them in particular. Actually I have a 8 x 10 glossy of Ansley in my game room. Someone suggested I "colorize it" which can be done with special software but I haven't investigated that as yet. A few other ideas were put forth on the Fox site a while back and any ideas here would be appreciated. I ran this past my wife's IP attorney and he has to be ok with a copy concept but so far we haven't come up with a reasonably secure way to do that.

[Drew Hause]

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world’s best known shooters from 1895-1915 and used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World’s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the “E.C.” Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896. The “Fred Gilbert Specifications” were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.
Gilbert used his Smith in the 1899 GAH then switched to a Parker. Order Book No. 41 records BH SN 83855 placed into stock in January, 1896 consigned to Fred Gilbert. The stock book lists a D5 hammerless, 0 extras, straight stock,12 gauge, 30” barrels, Gun count No. 482, Damascus barrels.
Toward the end of 1901, Gilbert received his new Parker DH SN 103649; no dolls head, no ejectors, 32” barrels, ordered by Russell Klein, Gilbert’s brother-in-law and also from Spirit Lake
https://books.google.com/books?id=rk...&pg=PA1012&lpg
The gun was returned to Parker Brothers in 1903 to be refurbished.

Hunter Arms records show the following guns shipped to Harvey McMurchy (courtesy of Dr. Jim Stubbendieck):
Serial No. 695: No. A1 12 gauge 32-inch; 14” LOP - 1 3/4” DAC - 3” DAH; 7 lb 12 oz; October 3, 1891
Serial No. 4524: Pigeon E, Non-selective trigger; 12 gauge 32-inch; 14 1/4” - 2” - 3 1/4”, 7 lb 14 oz; September 8, 1900

[Drew Hause]

The Interstate Association organized the first Grand American Handicap at Live Birds, under Revised Hurlingham rules, for spring 1893. Twenty-one shooters paid $25 to compete.
In 1894, first place was awarded $500 and guns were limited to 12 gauge and 8 pounds.

The 1898 “Trap Shooting Rules” by the American Shooting Association (courtesy of Randy Davis) listed the following rules:
Charge of powder was unlimited
Shot was limited to 1 1/4 oz. by “Dixon’s measure”
Weight limit (there was no weight limit in 1890 or 1893) and ‘naked’ was not stated:
10g - 9 lbs. 4 oz.
12g - 8 lbs. 4 oz.
16g - 7 lbs. 12 oz.
20g - 7 lbs. 8 oz.

Sporting Life
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25, 1898 as follows:
“We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.” ("Naked" was without a "boot" or barrel guard)

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (winner of the 1900 GAH at Live Birds; 7 pounds 13 ounce Parker), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1900 [1st] GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

[Drew Hause]

L.C. Smith Pigeon Gun

1894 Chas. Godfrey, N.Y. courtesy of Dave Noreen; illustrated with safety



1910 Norvell-Shapleigh, St. Louis; again with safety. At that point Hunter Arms described the gun as "Pigeon Gun", not "Pigeon Grade"



which is not to say "No Safety" could not be ordered. The two piece tang was discontinued about 1910, but found on guns as late as 1915

[Drew Hause]

1904 ad for the C.E.O. Trap Gun. The 1904 Touring UMC Squad, included T. A. Marshall, Captain; R. O. Heikes, C. W. Budd, J. L. Head. T. E Hubby, W. H. Heer, J. T. Anthony, F. C. Riehl and E. D. Fulford; assisted by Frank Butler, shot in 65 Southern Cities. The first five broke the five-man squad world's record by a score of 488X500 at Palestine, Texas.



March 2, 1907 "American Field" courtesy of David Noreen. The Remington C.E.O. and F.E. were both referred to a "Trap Gun"

[Dean Romig]

And if you can kill a duck with it, it's a duck gun.

And if you can kill a pheasant with it, it's a pheasant gun.

And if you can kill a goose with it, it's a goose gun.

I thought we were talking about "live bird guns"?

My point was that the label "live bird gun" is a misnomer in so many cases. A 'pigeon gun' or a 'trap gun' or an 'inanimate target gun' or a 'clays gun' in those cases when describing a particular gun would be far better descriptions of what the gun was intended for.

I've seen twenty-six inch 20 gauge and 16 gauge guns described as "live bird guns" for the simple reason that they were ordered without a safety.

I know - it's a matter of semantics and it becomes like splitting hairs, but "live bird gun" is so often a misnomer.





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[Cold Spring]

Well written Dean. You can take deer with a 22 Short or geese with a 410 or shoot live birds with any shotgun capable of 2 quick shots, but they're hardly optimal. The point here is that serious Live Bird shooters generally had dedicated guns ordered to their fit and configured for the sport. Besides Trap/clay guns, absence of a safety can be one of their criteria but there were upland hunters and waterfowlers who liked safetyless guns and those who do period readings will come across those references. There are also those who've never been invited to a live bird shoot to try it or even see how it's actually done but they can be so vocal in naming this or that SxS a "Live Bird gun".

Just for perspective here's a shot of a pigeon ring at a friend’s club, one of three, showing the handicap pads and the boundary fence if you expand the pic. Legal but "undisclosed location" and picture taken and used with permission.

[todd allen]

Just for some perspective, I have pictures of some of the founding members of the PGCA at a pigeon shoot that I organized. (including a picture of Oscar Gaddy shooting my Underlifter)
The location was/is legal, but just to be safe will be listed as Northern Mexico.

[todd allen]

Nice ring, Frank

[Drew Hause]

What makes a Live Bird gun? Whatever gun Rolla Heikes happened to be using this week

Heikes was the first industry representatives in 1885, with the Lefever Gun Co. In 1895-96, Heikes participated in 67 tournaments (despite having malaria in the summer of 1895) and was high gun in 60 using a Winchester 1893 slide-action. He defeated Fred Gilbert in 1896 at the 2nd "E.C." Cup "Champion Inanimate Target Shot of the World" in New York and was 4th in the GAH at Live Birds. Prior to using the Winchester, he shot a L.C. Smith. He defeated Charles Grimm on Dec. 6 1897 for the Cast Iron Medal using a Winchester 1897.
He defeated Fred Gilbert for the "E.C." Cup at Chicago, August 13, 1898 with a score of 140 to 137 out of 150 targets, then successfully defended the "Cast Iron Medal" against Fred Gilbert at Eau Claire, Wis., in August and W.R. Elliston in Nashville in October.



In 1899 he used a Remington Hammerless Double to defeat E.D. Fulford for the "E.C." Cup in January and won the Sportsmen's Association Championship Trophy in the trapshooting tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden in March. He used a Parker at the 1900 GAH at Live Birds, then went back to his Remington to win the first Grand American at Clay Targets held at Interstate Park in New York City June 12-15, 1900. In November 1900, he was using a new single trigger Remington hammerless double.
He was part of the victorious American team in the June 1901 Anglo-American Clay Bird Match using a Parker. He started 1902 shooting the Remington single trigger hammerless, then used a L.C. Smith at the Ohio State shoot and to take 3rd in the last GAH at Live Birds in Kansas City.
He came back from Typhoid Fever in 1904 to take HOA at the Dominion of Canada Exhibition Shoot in Winnipeg again shooting a Remington. In 1905 he began shooting a Remington Autoloading Shotgun and was 2nd High Professional at the 1906 GAH.