Bite my tongue?

[Mike Franzen]

This has been a very thought provoking thread with a lot of good points on all sides. I favor the no negativity side and here’s why: we are a very small fraternity that a few craftsmen have developed a relationship with to keep our guns in good repair. We shouldn’t use this public forum in a way that could harm their ability to conduct business with us. Every man on here is responsible for the guns in his possession. If, you’ve been around this game awhile you know who does work that you trust and can rely on. If, you’re not sure who to take a particular project to then there are plenty of experienced folks on here you can approach in a private, one on one manner messaging or phone or even face to face to get their input to help you make a decision. Relying on the comments in a public forum is not a good way to make your decision when better alternatives exist. Here’s why: everyone has a different tolerance level for what is acceptable as to good work. Some people have an axe to grind. Some people will never admit they made the mistake when they neglected to give proper instructions to a gunsmith. Some will chime in because it’s their buddy posting on the forum and they want to show support. And, some people just can’t be pleased. To say we should do it because it’s done on other forums and venues misses what I think is a very crucial point - We don’t need to do what people are doing on other forums to be successful. No one can or should try to stop anyone from talking about a negative experience. Trust me, there are a couple of people out there who have done work I consider less than acceptable. They have lost my business. If, I’m asked, in a serious discussion about who to send a gun to I’m going to try and steer them away from those people. I think that’s fair. So in conclusion, if you don’t know who to send a gun to then don’t send it until you have talked to someone you you have developed a relationship with that you can trust. Don’t rely on the internet to make your decisions. Don’t use the forum to lash out at someone who didn’t satisfy your demands. If, you had shoddy work done, don’t do business with them anymore and don’t recommend them anymore. Those guys rely heavily on word of mouth to stay in business. It doesn’t take long for word to spread amongst the connected as to who to go to and who to avoid. If, you aren’t connected then take the time to develop those connections. If you can’t or won’t do that then you’re probably going to struggle. I can see the wisdom of keeping the negativity off the forum. If, we help put these guys out of business who we going to send the guns to?

[Marty K.]

Mike.......... I very much like what you explained .......You have made it much clearer for me....I believe that's the way to go....case closed for me.
Thank you, Marty

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce seems to imply that there are names mentioned on this thread. There have been no gunsmiths, good or bad, mentioned by name on this thread.

[Richard Flanders]

I had a very bad experience with a very respected smith who everyone here knows of. I had a gun ruined to the point to where I doubt I could give it away for anything more than parts at this point. I have never put his name on the forum and never will. Some have requested his name privately and have gotten it and that's the way I will keep it. There's just nothing to be gained by putting it out there for the entire internet world to see... nothing.

[winplumber]

Originally Posted by Richard Flanders

I had a very bad experience with a very respected smith who everyone here knows of. I had a gun ruined to the point to where I doubt I could give it away for anything more than parts at this point. I have never put his name on the forum and never will. Some have requested his name privately and have gotten it and that's the way I will keep it. There's just nothing to be gained by putting it out there for the entire internet world to see... nothing.

I agree there is nothing to be gained but may be a lot could be saved . Im trying to grasp these tight lip thoughts. Im not trying to start a fight. I always look out for the next guy maybe I shouldn't do that but that's just not me. Im not saying to blast it all over but we do have a Private message system and it works . If someone asked about a certain repair or whatever and you had a bad experience and could help the person not loose a complete gun or whatever I think I would do that. That being said and I don't know what happened to Richards gun if is was all the fault of the smith or something that was of really no ones fault as we weren't told what happened , So why say anything?

[Victor Wasylyna]

Originally Posted by Richard Flanders

There's just nothing to be gained by putting it out there for the entire internet world to see... nothing.

While I support the original poster and oppose treating shotgun-related service providers with special kid gloves, I would support keeping such threads under the member-only section. The PGCA is too generous to non-members. The reloading forum is a great example.

-Victor

[Southpaw]

I don't know that there is a stock answer or opinion we can all rely on given the speculative and circumstantial nature of the question posed. The old saying is opinions are like assholes, everyone has got at least one, but do know a fella that has two, of both, and for the record only told this with regard to body part. Some things you just take at face value and move on.

Btw, I commend the way this topic is being treated and discussed here. On other boards this would have devolved into a knock down drag out but everyone thus far has stayed above the fray. There have been some very well thought out points and counterpoints provided by some well respected and highly regarded people on this site.

However I do think this is more of a philosophical policy discussion than anything. Will stop short of quoting Voltaire or anything on duality of man.

Most retail vendors have a rating system for their goods and seek recommendations. Service industry is different. Is there an Angie's List for gunsmiths?

[todd allen]

Note to the gunsmith/shop in question:
If you read this forum, then you know who you are. Fix your screw-up - make your customer happy.
If you feel you did nothing wrong, communicate with your customer, and explain why the job could not be done to his expectation.
My background is auto collision repair business. One thing I learned, is some things aren't fixable, and, in truth, some customers/jobs need to be avoided.
What Brian D. said resonated with me. Don't work on projects that are so butched up, that even if you worked on one end, the other end will be blamed on you, and damage your reputation. (not saying this is the case with Mark's project)
We refused to work on rust buckets, rebuilt totals, or otherwise hacked up vehicles, and it paid off.
I don't know anything about the gun restoration business, but I know a lot about business. One of the key overlooked rules of business, is communication.

[JLoew]

I don't feel the PGCA forum is a place to air dirty laundry. If someone asks for an opinion, you can share it but I would use common sense such as in my business career, one of the great lessons I learned was to "praise in public and punish in private." Same should be true here IMHO. The PGCA is a group of paying members who are 1350 strong. We are a small community and in my opinion it does no good for anyone to publicly hurt another member.

[Southpaw]

Rich you were author of thread that attempted to list known gunsmiths that work on Parkers. As I recall all comments were generally favorable for the ones posted, some had no real comments beside them. What if there was a dedicated bulletin board and not just a thread where someone could post a respectful comment (positive or negative) about their experiences. Maybe even a star, number system, or thumbs symbol as a guide. That way someone could post their name and post a symbol. If someone wants to reach out to that person offline to find out experience then its done in a discreet manner not putting anyone in the stocks for ridicule or public debate but informing users that they need to be on the lookout for issues.

It also stands by itself and if that gunsmith has a connection with PGCA then by gosh they should bend over backwards to make sure jobs get done correctly and they are mindful of customer service for that recommendation. I don't think we need to go so far as so called official gunsmith rating agency but it should be something to consider and reflects on the buying power of this group. I think that was mentioned earlier that we should not disparage other members or participants to a forum, and that cuts both ways. Neither should another member or participant take advantage of another one, its just as bad.

Anyway I have said enough but myself being in a professional service industry its a topic that I am very cognitive and protective of when it comes to integrity. One group I worked with offered a money back guarantee which was absolutely unheard of in the industry and since then I have not heard it repeated since, but by golly it made you work your butt off to do the right thing and make sure customer was happy for repeat business and recommendations. We also offered customer reviews that were sent to the President of our company and if we worked on project and got a ding you got a call from the man. That was not a call you wanted to get.