Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Parker Forums General Parker Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
11 Gauge
Unread 12-08-2021, 07:59 PM   #1
Member
ArtS
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 1,086
Thanks: 104
Thanked 1,543 Times in 572 Posts

Default 11 Gauge

I am really amazed by the confusion that is so widespread concerning 11 gauge barrels. The same situation exists with 9 gauge barrels, but since Parker never, to my knowledge, cataloged a 9 ga it isn't a real point of conflict. I ran into that when I bought a 10 gauge Parker with barrels that measured 0.794 - 0.795 inches. I spent an entire evening going through The Parker Story, taking notes, and eventually coming to understand that in the 1870's and early1880's, the majority of the 10 gauges were fitted with 9 gauge barrels and the majority of the 12 gauges were fitted with actual 11 bore barrels. This, coupled with the stepped chamber mouth (essentially no forcing cone) and the brass shells made to match these chambers and barrels inproved perormance. The chambers had to actually be enlarged to current dimensions when paper shells became more universally accepted. This situation was so widespread that in March 1892, the company annotated the order books to set a policy that the standard from that point forward for 12 gauge would be to use true bore gauge barrels. If these were not used, the gun ws to be stamped with an "O" to signify the "old" or "original" size. The stock books soon after carried a similar notice for the 10 gauge.

THe impact on 10 ga is that people often think their barrels have been bored out to extreme dimensions. Since the 11 gauge was sold but extremely rare, people seem to be constantly celebrating the find of a very rare Parker. The Parker Story shows a Parker tag provided that outlined the best loading practice for these guns and they recommended 9ga over powder and over shot wads.

In the previous Parker Pages there was an article that featured one such gun. It was supposedly an 11 ga in grade L2. The serial number was not listed, but it was quoted as being made in, I believe, 1874. I looked entirely through the 1874 serial number listings and could find no 11 ga gun with those specs. The article went on to say that a short 10 gauge shell fit the gun perfectly. Since the 11 ga barrels were used for 10, 11 and 12 ga guns, I have to presume this was a pretty standard 10 ga.

One large Gunbroker seller who lists scores and scores of overpriced Parkers has been listing an Ultra rare 11 Gauge Parker for many, many thousands of dollars. It is listed as having .75 inch bores and .810 chambers, both right between 12 and 10 gauge. It states that it is listed in the serialization book as a 12 gauge, which he states is what usually happened with 11 gauge guns for some unknown reason.

I sent him a note that the .750 bore is an 11 bore and the .810 chamber is exactly the correct spec for a modern 12 ga shell, and if it was listed in the records as a 12 gauge then what he was selling was a very well worn 12 gauge grade 2 gun. No response has been recieved.

The rarity of 11 gauge Parkers and the commonality of the 11 ga barrel itself seems to drive everyone who measures a bore to try and cash in on his rare find.

It's a shame that Parker never stamped their gauge size on the guns. This is an area that really set the early guns apart from the rest of the inustry but seems to just generate a lot of confusion now to a lot of buyers.
Arthur Shaffer is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Arthur Shaffer For Your Post:
Unread 12-08-2021, 08:25 PM   #2
Member
Kevin McCormack
PGCA Lifetime
Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,246
Thanks: 1,712
Thanked 4,267 Times in 1,192 Posts

Default

YEAH, BABY!
Kevin McCormack is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-08-2021, 08:33 PM   #3
Member
Milton C Starr
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,509
Thanks: 476
Thanked 1,009 Times in 466 Posts

Default

I seen that one the other day the plaid table cloth guy, also Im not 100% sure but that doesnt look like a grade 2?
Milton C Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 02:40 AM   #4
Member
Bruce P Bruner
PGCA Member
 
Bruce P Bruner's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 561
Thanks: 1,297
Thanked 2,231 Times in 391 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton C Starr View Post
I seen that one the other day the plaid table cloth guy, also Im not 100% sure but that doesnt look like a grade 2?
Yup, I have seen it also. "plaid table guy"
Bruce P Bruner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 08:16 PM   #5
Member
Milton C Starr
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,509
Thanks: 476
Thanked 1,009 Times in 466 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce P Bruner View Post
Yup, I have seen it also. "plaid table guy"
He does have a few interesting listings and then some of his others are puzzling.
Milton C Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-08-2021, 08:34 PM   #6
Member
Researcher
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Dave Noreen's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,842
Thanks: 1,834
Thanked 8,688 Times in 2,555 Posts

Default

A decade later Chamberlin Cartridge Co. (1886-87 catalog) offered special loads with oversize wads for Parker Bros. guns.

1886-7 page 6 Parker Load Highlighted.jpg

1886-7 page 7 Parker Load Highlighted.jpg

When our major ammunition manufacturers began offering factory loaded shells in the 1890s, we see no such foolishness.
Dave Noreen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave Noreen For Your Post:
Unread 12-09-2021, 11:31 AM   #7
Member
charlie cleveland
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,986
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7,806 Times in 3,970 Posts

Default

I have a 11 ga parker hammer gun once owned by Austin Hogan...10 ga paper shell will not go in the chamber...12 ga shell to loose in chamber but will fire in it....11 ga shell would be just right but I do not have a 11 ga shell to try it....charlie
charlie cleveland is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to charlie cleveland For Your Post:
Unread 12-09-2021, 12:38 PM   #8
Member
ArtS
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 1,086
Thanks: 104
Thanked 1,543 Times in 572 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie cleveland View Post
I have a 11 ga parker hammer gun once owned by Austin Hogan...10 ga paper shell will not go in the chamber...12 ga shell to loose in chamber but will fire in it....11 ga shell would be just right but I do not have a 11 ga shell to try it....charlie
That's because you have a real 11 gauge. There was a good article in an older DGJ about one.
Arthur Shaffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 12:45 PM   #9
Member
Researcher
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Dave Noreen's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,842
Thanks: 1,834
Thanked 8,688 Times in 2,555 Posts

Default

I did a scan of the available Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogs/price sheets/broadsides. The 1873 price list offers brass shells from 8 to 14 gauge. The 1877 E. Remington & Sons catalog offers both A & B 10- and 12-gauge brass shells and 16B brass shells. I only found No. 11 brass shells offered in the 1880 and 1882 (No. 11B) UMC catalogs.

1880 empty brass shotshells.png

Everything 1884 and later no No. 11 shells. Nothing I've found offers a No. 11 paper shell.
Dave Noreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 04:03 PM   #10
Member
Pa SxS
Research Chairman
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Chuck Bishop's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,972
Thanks: 1,271
Thanked 5,289 Times in 1,500 Posts

Default

Art, can you please point me to the order books and stock books that show this? I haven't seen this documented in my 10 years of looking at the records.

Quote:
This situation was so widespread that in March 1892, the company annotated the order books to set a policy that the standard from that point forward for 12 gauge would be to use true bore gauge barrels. If these were not used, the gun ws to be stamped with an "O" to signify the "old" or "original" size. The stock books soon after carried a similar notice for the 10 gauge.
Chuck Bishop is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.