roll crimp or 6 fold

[charlie cleveland]

i was sitting here looking at somewinchester record brand 12 gauge shotgun shells...the first shell is a western superx 3 inch 12 ga maximum lubaloy load 1 3/8 ounce load this is a 6 point crimped load....2nd shell is a western record brand 3 inch magnum 1 5/8 ounce load it is roll crimped...3rd 3 inch peters deluxe load 1 5/8 ounce it is roll crimped...4th a 10 ga super x 2 7/8 inch shell it is roll crimped....5 th is awestern record shell 2 3/4 inch it is roll crimped....i was just wondering why they only put the 6 poinnt crimp on that one brand of shells and why they did not use it on the other line of shells... the shell they crimped was made in the early 1920 s for the new 3 inch long range guns it is not a magnum load yet..was the 6 point crimp better than the old roll crimp...i dont know thats what i would like to know....charlie

[Researcher]

Our North American ammunition companies all introduced the folded "pie crimp" on their trap and skeet loads circa 1938/9.

Super-Trap folder inside.jpg

Xpert Skeet & Trap Loads 1938.jpg

New Remington Crimp on SHUR SHOT Trap & Skeet Loads.jpg

Hunting loads didn't begin appearing with the "pie crimp" until after WW-II. DuPont Remington/Peters began advertising them in 1947.

New Peters Crimp March 13, 1947.jpg

Winchester and Western began adding their Super-Seal crimp to hunting loads by 1948/9.

These "pie crimps" all showed up first on 2 3/4 inch 12-, 16- and 20-gauge loads. Slower movers continued with roll-crimps for some time.

the shell they crimped was made in the early 1920 s for the new 3 inch long range guns it is not a magnum load yet..was the 6 point crimp better than the old roll crimp...i dont know thats what i would like to know..

No your shell wasn't made in the mid-1920s. Winchester/Western continued to offer the 12-gauge, 3-inch, 1 3/8 ounce load with either chilled or Lubaloy shot well into the plastic Mark-5 era in 1969, where my catalog collection runs out. Whether the folded "pie crimp" was better was likely miniscule and you would never know the difference in the field. The Lubaloy shot was introduced in the Western Cartridge Co. Super-X loads circa 1929.

[Paul Harm]

JMHO, the shell manufactures kept using the roll crimp method because that's what they had machinery to do. I would think the fold crimp was less costly to do - no OS card - so they eventually went to it. Maybe they glued the thin paper piece over the fold crimp at first because someone thought the customers wanted to see shells the way they use to be ? And they thought it made the shell waterproof. Just some ideas running through my head.

[charlie cleveland]

thanks researcher for your good info on the wad and roll crimp...i know peters ammo made a big deal out of what they called the new crimp....i still roll crimp a lot especally the 8 gauge loads for onr reason i do not have a 6 way crimper for it...charlie

[Steve Hastie]

Question.
Do you get more pressure from a roll crimp over a 6 fold crimp cartridge?

[edgarspencer]

Opinions, and data differs on pressure difference. Some say Roll crimps develope less pressure, some say they're the same. Never heard anyone say they were higher than folded crimp.

[Paul Harm]

I've always heard less pressure for the roll crimp, but Mark O told me if you make the roll over real deep it can raise pressures above the fold crimp. That would make sense to me. Mine are usually, I'm guessing because I'm too lazy to go down the basement and measure, about .030 to .040 deep. I'm just comparing in my mind that they didn't look as deep as a .060 fold crimp, which is what a factory crimp should be.