So When is "Original" no longer Original?

[Dean Romig]

There are a great many of the finest Parkers living waaaaay outside of Yankee land...





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[JimDurchholz]

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

[JimDurchholz]

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

[mobirdhunter]

Originally Posted by JimDurchholz

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

Jim, Others with greater experience and knowledge will likely chime in, but in order of your questions:

- Case hardened frames were the standard for Parker shotguns.
- GH grade guns generally had a Parker hard rubber butt plate, but could be ordered with pads, checkered, and with other options the purchaser was willing to pay for. As a lower grade, one does not commonly find more than the occasional checkered butt and pad in the factory records for this grade.
- Grip caps varied over time, and not all had writing on them. Knowing the year of manufacture can help determine the cap's originality.
- It's doubtful that your barrels are original if not stamped with the Parker name. Certain stampings were pretty standard on Parker barrels and you can find information about those from the links on the Home Page.

Pictures posted of your gun would bring much better and accurate replies. Some of the guys here can see things in photos that still continue to amaze me. As a member, you can order a letter for your gun at a significantly reduced rate if the records exist. Those letters can reveal important things about the originality of your gun.

You might try reposting your message on the new member page to get a wider audience.

Welcome, and enjoy that 1 1/2 frame gun (wish I had one).

[Dean Romig]

97848 would have been made with Damascus Steel barrels and the original top rib would confirm that but it is not in the Serialization book so maybe a research letter will say. If it has fluid steel barrels they are replacements.

Garry has it pretty well covered above.





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[Jimmerp]

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.

[Ron Scott]

Originally Posted by James Purdy

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.

My feelings exactly.

[6pt-Sika]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

There are a great many of the finest Parkers living waaaaay outside of Yankee land...
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But of course what true southern gentleman would call existing above the Mason Dixon line LIVING

[Stan Hillis]

IMO there should be differentiation between "original condition and finishes" and "original configuration". The former meaning that, by all appearances, no metal or wood finishes have been restored or replaced ...... the latter meaning that finishes may have been restored or replaced but the order card dimensions and specs for the gun match exactly, and numbers match.

Also IMO, it may be impossible to determine whether a particular gun falls under the former or the latter category. A gun that was returned to Parker twenty years after its original completion, for freshing up, then used by subsequent owners for the next 60-80 years may be indistinguishable from a category one gun.

Interesting thread.

SRH

[mobirdhunter]

Originally Posted by James Purdy

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.

Glenn, James, and others who've posted on this thread: For those of you that are relatively new to the forum and/or to double gun collecting, welcome to a world most rewarding -- and sometimes befuddling. Let me say here that no matter how it might seem, no one person speaks for all of the collecting fraternity, and although there are common beliefs among that fraternity, collecting is as idiosyncratic as are the humans that engage in it.

People collect for many reasons, and in the American double gun collecting community I think it's safe to say that the love of the guns, a respect for the craftsmen and women who made them, and a nostalgia for the time are often common threads in our passion. Certainly, high condition, original guns are prized, but so are unique specimens; time worn, but sound examples; time ravaged, but faithfully restored, and other permutations of the American gun craft. You'll read comments from folks who talk as much about the "deal" or "find" as they do about the actual gun -- and who doesn't like to find the "stored in the attic" example for sale cheap at a yard sale? In the end, the guns draw us together, and let me assure you that we all appreciate -- although sometimes our comments don't always reflect it -- our fellow collectors' passion for Parkers.

The aesthetic that each of us applies to our collecting, in all likelihood, changes over time for various reasons. Mine certainly has. This development is only natural, but in the end there are still "purists," "user-collectors," "accumulators," and other permutations of collecting among our ranks (I use quotations because these are terms some of our members have used about themselves). The one common element that I've discerned in observing these discussions over time is that folks are sincere about their love of Parkers and all that goes with collecting them -- the mystic of the Parker gun as Dean Romig reminded me just recently.

So, what you noted in your post I'm sure struck a positive cord with many of us. I hope you'll be enriched by these discussions as I have over the years. I also hope you will continue to participate in our discussions. One of my passions, besides Parkers, is continuing to learn. I learn much from my colleagues here, and not just specifics about these fine guns.

I hope you'll post some photos of your gun(s). I'd enjoy seeing them and hearing more about your views on collecting.